ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, prison officers, as you’ve been hearing, have warned there could be more disruption in jails because of government cuts to funding. The Prison Officers Association said that a disturbance yesterday involving around 40 inmates at Maidstone Prison was in response to new regime changes and staff cuts. Well no one was hurt during the trouble but should the government rethink cuts to the justice budget? Joining me here in the studio is Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, a very good morning to you Mr Khan. A quick reflection on that then, you can’t attribute it instantly to government cuts but do you think it’s a factor?

SADIQ KHAN: Well I think that Chris Grayling should of course visit prisons more often, sometimes without cameras, and speak to governors and prison officers. I speak to prisoner officers and prison governors and they are worried. Prison places are going down, prison numbers are going up, prison staff is going down and they worry, as there are fewer courses for prisoners to go on, as there are fewer prison officers to take a prisoner from their cell to the course, it means prisoners spend more time in their cells, often for 18, 20 hours a day, they fester and that leads to an environment where trouble can occur. We’ve had trouble in Birmingham, in Hewell, we had a rooftop protest in Oakwood, last night in Maidstone – there is a pattern emerging. I don’t want to scaremonger and all we hope is that Chris Grayling spends some time focusing on this issue, seeing if there is a link which needs policies …

DM: And on the policies, on the money side, have they cut too much from the justice budget, from the prison budget? Would you restore it, Labour?

SADIQ KHAN: Well over the last two years they have closed 13 prisons, there are 5,000 fewer places, more overcrowding. We are at 99.12% of prison capacity, prisons are overcrowded, there are fewer prison officers and I would make sure that prisons are doing the job they are supposed to which is …

DM: Would you keep to the budget that you would inherit or would you increase that budget?

SADIQ KHAN: Well I wouldn’t close down prisons unless I knew there were more places for prisoners to go into because you don’t want a situation where people are being overcrowded and prison officer numbers are being cut so what I would do, before I closed down a prison, I’d make sure there was a newer prison for the prisoners to go to and what I wouldn’t do is have a situation that operates at 99.12% of our prison capacity. History tells us that leads to the problems we’ve had over the last month.

DM: This has a direct bearing, doesn’t it, on the issue I want to move on to which is the part-privatisation, so-called, of the Probation Service because clearly if people spend time in prisons and don’t get really anything productive to do, they are less of a benefit to society when they come out, they haven’t had the skills and training and that rehabilitation factor. What do you think Chris Grayling is moving too far too fast, so to speak, on the probation service?

SADIQ KHAN: Well I saw with interest your interview with Chris Grayling in Wandsworth Prison which is in my constituency and frankly speaking, Dermot, I shouldn’t have to say this but he told a number of untruths and he was misleading about the position as it is. Look, he blamed probation for the fact that too many prisoners who leave after serving less than 12 months reoffend. Well if you have served less than 12 months you have no probation supervision so don’t blame probation for that situation. I welcome the fact that they will now be supervised where they weren’t in the past but you can’t use that …

DM: So you think that is a positive move?

SADIQ KHAN: I welcome the fact that those under 12 months will be supervised, I welcome through the gate supervision, I welcome mentoring. How he is going to do it, nobody knows. The Ministry of Justice themselves have done a risk register which says that the plans that Chris Grayling has and the speed at which he is doing it is dangerous.

DM: Well how do you know, he hasn’t published that?

SADIQ KHAN: Because the newspapers have seen copies of this and Chris Grayling is refusing to publish it. I say, look, show that I’m wrong, that we’ve got it wrong and publish the report. Secondly, Chris Grayling says that he thinks his policies are cost neutral. Well he can’t say that because the Ministry of Justice have done an impact assessment and they say in words to the effect, we don’t know the cost of these plans, whether they’ll save money or cost extra money but what I do know is if you give medium and low risk offenders – sex offenders, those who have done GBH, those who have done domestic violence and serious offences, to be supervised by the likes of G4S, Serco, Uncle Tom Cobbley, all the experts tell us that can mean that people in our community who should be supervised by professional probation officers, may not be done so.

DM: You might have seen in the interview, I pushed him on that, this low to medium risk and you are saying exactly the kind of offenders who can fall into those categories. His response was, well professionals make that assessment and if they are put into a low risk category in spite of the crime they’ve done, that’s because of the way they’ve conducted themselves while they were in prison, they have fully reformed, they have been co-operative and they are quite rightly in that category.

SADIQ KHAN: Chris Grayling does not understand how our probation system works. A quarter of those who are under supervision have their risk levels fluctuate. They can be medium risk one night, high risk tomorrow, because for example their partner might get a new boyfriend, in a domestic violence case, they might stop taking their medication, there may be another reason why they become high risk. At the moment the police share intelligence with probation, probation often have access to police computers so they know if somebody is going to become a risk and if that risk fluctuates. Are you honestly saying that in the future the police will be sharing that intelligence with G4S and with Serco and with Uncle Tom Cobbley?

DM: Do you think they should be banned from bidding for these contacts Serco and G4S? The Ministry of Justice is looking into aspects of some of their work.

SADIQ KHAN: Without equivocation, yes. Very serious allegations have been made against G4S and Serco, I asked Chris Grayling to get the Serious Fraud Office and the police to investigate and after a delay of a month he finally did. He refuses to rule out G4S and Serco. He should be standing up to these big private companies making a huge amount of profit rather than privatising probation and taking a huge risk with public safety.

DM: Okay, well you’re very angry about it so are the probation officers right to go on strike about this?

SADIQ KHAN: Look, a strike is a sign of failure, they shouldn’t be going on strike but …

DM: So who has to back down, does Chris Grayling have to back down?

SADIQ KHAN: It is only the third time in the 106 year history of probation that they have balloted for strike action. I hope that Chris Grayling sits down with the probation chiefs and works out a resolution to this issue because what we can’t afford to happen is probation officers not only privatised but being on strike on days they should be supervising people who could be a danger to the public. The thing about payment by results, Dermot, I just want to refer to while I’ve got your time is that Chris Grayling is trying to give the impression that these private companies will only get paid if they are successful. Untrue. They will get paid nearly all of their contract and a bonus if they are successful so let’s not pretend that these companies only get paid by results.

DM: That is slightly different. Okay, Mr Khan, thank you very much indeed for your time. Sadiq Khan there, Shadow Justice Secretary.