ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now is Chuka Umunna a pro-business politician in an anti-business party?  As Labour’s Shadow Business Secretary he has backed proposals for energy price freezes, bank break ups and rent controls and more and yet he has also said that he has got no problem with people making vast amounts of money as long as they pay their taxes.  So how do you square the two approaches?  Let’s say a very good morning to Mr Umunna.  You heard the introduction there, are you sitting easily within this party as it takes on more of an interventionist and controlling stance when it comes to big business interests?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well I don’t agree with your characterisation …

DM: Well it is interventionist. 

CHUKA UMUNNA: … because you didn’t mention our plans to set up a British investment bank and a network of regional banks to support small business and entrepreneurs.  You didn’t perhaps talk about the single biggest concern for British businesses at the moment which is whether we stay in the European Union or not and we’ve been very clear we absolutely want to see Britain remain a member of the European Union which is fundamental for our trading prowess and for British jobs and growth.  You also …

DM: You also very cleverly deflected the question about interventionism, about Labour’s attitude to markets.  First of all, are Labour still a free market party?

CHUKA UMUNNA: We are a free market party but the question is, do you seek to shape our markets so they serve people or do you have people as the servant of the market and we want the British people to be served much better by markets and that’s why – it’s not really about intervention, it’s about government working in partnership with British business to deliver the goods for our country, for our people and …

DM: But it is intervention if you legislate to prevent energy companies charging more than you think that they ought to. 

CHUKA UMUNNA: Hang on a minute though, we have different forms of intervention.  We legislate to ensure that people wear seatbelts in cars, we legislate to ensure that cowboys can’t come in and rip off people in different shapes or forms so I don’t agree with the characterisation where it is interventionist or controlling or whichever way you put it.  The question is, how do we actually markets to work better for businesses and also better for people.  You talked about the energy price freeze, our plan to freeze energy prices for 20 months if we are elected next year will save the average small business in the UK £5000, that is an incredibly pro-business measure, that’s a pro-business policy and one of the things I was going to mention was for all this talk about us being anti-business, we last year instigated and brought over from the US the concept of Small Business Saturday.  On the 7th December last year that pushed almost half a billion pounds worth of extra business to small businesses last year, that is not the action of an anti-business party. 

DM: But is it the action of a ‘we know better than you’ party?  You haven’t just got the energy price freeze, we had the announcement last week about rents, we’ve got discussions today, we’ve heard them before, about what you will do with train companies, we’ve got on the front page of the Mail of the Sunday that you are going to tell people what they can eat and drink. 

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well look, that piece in the Mail on Sunday, I’m mentioned in it, the Shadow Health Secretary Andy Burnham is mentioned in it, the Mail on Sunday didn’t speak to either of us about that piece.  A lot of it is garbage and actually what we want to do is to help people lead more healthy lives, it’s not about imposing or forcing your view on people, we actually want to empower them to be able to live more healthy lives. 

DM: Okay, on business let’s talk about a specific issue, it’s live, it’s there now, you talked about it last week, you know what I’m talking about now, in the pharmaceuticals world, Pfizer’s bid for AstraZeneca and its implications, particularly for R&D and jobs in this country.  We’ve just heard your leader saying he’d like to see a public interest test applied to takeovers like that, would you go along with that?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Of course I would, this is something we’ve been looking at since 2012 and I’ve increasingly become convinced and persuaded that we need to do more in terms of ensuring that where you have national assets, big strategic companies like AstraZeneca, and remember this is a company that contributes alone 3% of our exports and provides over 7000 jobs and therefore I think it is in the interests of your viewers, all of us, to actually take a view on this and my worry about this is that it isn’t going ahead and being pushed ahead to grow jobs and growth in the British pharmaceutical sector, our science skills and research base or because actually Pfizer wants to make a long term investment, my worry is that this is primarily being driven by tax and that essentially Pfizer is seeking to use one of the jewels in the crown of British industry as a pawn in some kind of tax planning game which I think would be the …

DM: But one question, I put this to the Shadow Chancellor as well, what would Britain do to make the tax regime less welcoming to companies like that?  Would you put up the rate of corporation tax?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well I’ll tell you there is something that we wouldn’t do which is what the Chancellor and the Prime Minister have been doing in the last week which is acting as a cheerleader for this big American company seeking to take over a fantastic innovative R&D …

DM: When you characterise it like that … I mean I was talking to Grant Shapps who said they have had discussions with them …

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well they should do, they have belatedly started speaking to the Astra board, having massively undermined the Astra board and actually I think the actions of the government which have been giving the impression that this is very much going to be a good thing for the British economy, appointing negotiators – Dermot, that is unheard of for a cabinet secretary to be appointed as a negotiator with a potential bidder of a British firm and actually what they are doing, so far the Astra board have held firm and have refused to accept the advances of Pfizer, what it will do …

DM: Well isn’t it a form of the public interest test? 

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, it is one thing asking for commitments, it is quite another negotiating behind the backs and above the heads of the Astra board and what this is actually going to do, if the Astra board continues to refuse the advances of Pfizer, what the government is doing increases the chances of this turning into a hostile takeover bid.  This could be the result of what the government has done.   

DM: A hostile takeover bid is whether the shareholders reject it or not isn’t it?   

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, a hostile takeover bid is one where the board …

DM: Let me ask you about the public interest test and I have to put my specs on here because I got it from a friend’s phone, one of our reporter’s phones, this is from a speech you made in November 2012 talking about public interest tests and you said ‘If I were the Business Secretary I for one would not look with joy at the prospect of intense political lobbying from all quarters every time a major takeover is in the offing.  Ministers should not duck decisions where absolutely necessary.’  So you are not in favour of public interest tests unless you’ve been told you suddenly are. 

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, no, no, this is absolute nonsense and no doubt that is probably from a CCHQ twitter feed. 

DM: No, it’s from what speech you made. 

CHUKA UMUNNA: What you don’t mention …

DM: Did you make the speech?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I made the speech but what you don’t quote, Dermot, and I thought this may come up, what you don’t quote is me saying I am open to the debate.  As I said, I’ve been looking at this since 2012 and over time I have increasingly become persuaded.  Now what …

DM: You don’t think it would politicise the process, as you used to think?

CHUKA UMUNNA: You have got to be very careful how you do this.  Now some people propose that you just have a broad all-singing, all-dancing public interest test where you give the Secretary of State, if I were the Business Secretary, wide ranging powers to block takeovers.  We are not proposing to do that.  The Secretary of State can intervene on grounds of national security, media plurality, financial stability and competition to block takeovers. What we are saying is that we would increase and add an another category which is the impact that a potential takeover has on R&D and on our science base and we would have an independent group of people who would advise government on whether the takeover is good or bad for our science base and if they say no, then the Secretary of State could block the deal.  Now that is different from having the wide ranging public interest test which I talked about in the speech but as I said, over time – and I listen a lot to leading figures in business and in the science community, David Savory, Lord Sainsbury, very respected business figure, you’ve got Lord Mervyn Davis the former head of Standard Chartered Bank and a former Business Minister and a range of others, Lord Heseltine is a good example, all of who have been saying that we need to look at the takeover regime and ensure that this type of situation is covered and that is all we are saying today.

DM: We’re nearly out of time, one last quick question on the Jeremy Clarkson row.  We heard from your Deputy Leader Harriet Harman saying she thinks he should go, he’s in trouble, what do you think?   

CHUKA UMUNNA: Look, I don’t know all of the details …

DM: Well why not?

CHUKA UMUNNA:             If you let me finish, I am aware of what he was recorded saying and I’ll tell you one thing that I’m very proud of and I think we should celebrate is the fact that his use of that word has invited the outrage and controversy that it has in our country.  There are many other European countries where if you use that kind of language it wouldn’t really figure on the radar and I think we should be proud of the outrage because what it illustrates is that we are a multi-cultural country, we are proud of our values of tolerance, internationalism and taking a broad look at the world and that kind of language illustrates a small view of the world and a small view of what our country potentially could be, which it isn’t.  I think that’s a really positive thing.  

DM:  So you find something positive out of that.  Good to talk to you, Shadow Business Secretary, thank you very much indeed.  Chuka Umunna there.