ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the Prime Minister is prepared to go head to head with Nigel Farage in a television debate before the General Election, that’s according to the Sunday Times this morning and it’s certainly something you’d want to Sky+ perhaps.  So could it actually happen?  Let’s say a very good morning to the Conservative Party Chairman, Grant Shapps, very good to see you.  How well advanced are Conservative plans for these television debates?

GRANT SHAPPS: All I can tell you is that we think the debates were a good innovation, they were something new during the last general election.  There was a bit of a problem in that they all took place during the general election, people across the country didn’t get to see the party leaders and the debate properly in their local area so it is quite possible I think not to bunch them all up in a campaign.  Now we know that the election date is May 7th, and remember this is the first parliament where there has been a fixed date, so I think it was a good innovation but beyond that I can tell you that there is no negotiations underway yet, that will have to wait until the back end of this year after these local European elections and of course we have got the Queen’s Speech, we’ve got the very, very important issue of the Scottish referendum, all of those things to take place first and then we can talk about that.

DM: But you know, we’ve got this in the Sunday Times, it seems to be well sourced, that the discussion within the Conservative party is something different though.  The timing you’ve mentioned there of those debates but also who takes part in them – Nigel Farage perhaps, the leader of the Green Party as well in one of them, the five, three, two format ending up presumably with a head to head between Mr Cameron and Mr Miliband.

GRANT SHAPPS: As I say, I can’t give you very much more because these negotiations haven’t taken place and nor will they until probably around the autumn when the TV companies first …

DM: But what do you think personally, is it a good idea for Mr Cameron to discuss politics on air with Mr Farage who doesn’t have any MPs?

GRANT SHAPPS: You’ll excuse me for not sort of debating the format of the actual debates on your programme but what we are very clear about is we think they are a good innovation, we think the debates help the public get to see it.  I don’t want to see them dominate the actual campaign itself which was a genuine problem to people out in the country, not getting to see people coming to their region because it was all basically taken over by the debate, the prep for the debate, the post-analysis which took over the election.   We are very clear that the debates should take place, they are a good idea, negotiations on exact details, format, who should be involved and all of that will be this autumn.

DM: But we have got this – I’ll just push you one more time on it – Mr Farage has got no MPs, we know that, UKIP has got no MPs although they might have an awful lot of MEPs after the European elections, have UKIP earned their right to take part in one of these debates?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well usually these debates are about which person is likely or has the potential to be Prime Minister of this country after a general election but the exact format, and I’m not avoiding your question, you are asking me to negotiate something which is yet to be discussed and negotiated and that won’t happen until later in the year but all options are on the table right now.

DM: Okay, all options are on the table, well that leads us in to UKIP and the threat from the European elections.  Do you think that UKIP is a racist type party, has racist elements within it?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, first of all I want to absolutely distinguish between people who vote for a party and people who stand for the party and the rest of it.  Every party has to manage who their candidates are, I think it is pretty apparent by this stage that UKIP have not done that but they have a remarkable string of individual circumstances which add up something bigger which does lead you to have concerns about some of the people involved in that party.  As I say …

DM: Is one of those concerns that they are racist?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well you don’t have to look far to see day in, day out serious allegations being made which turn out to be true.  In the end, and as I say I want to make a very clear distinction between that, what motivates perhaps the leadership or others and the people who vote for a party.  I think in the end people should see what motivates the party but I don’t to be criticised for …

DM: Well it’s interesting, presumably you have seen the Sun on Sunday poll, haven’t you, about the attitude to UKIP and 27% think that UKIP has racist elements and others on top of that say they have members who are or have been racists.

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, I think that UKIP represent in many ways the extreme, for example on the European debate where they say they want a bunch of different things, they want to get us out of Europe and what have you, and then freely admit that they can’t actually deliver that.  Nigel Farage himself says I can’t actually do anything, we can’t actually do anything in Europe and when people say well I may well vote UKIP I say it’s interesting, last time round you would have been voting for a party where 40% of the MEPs ended up resigning, defecting or going to jail.  It doesn’t actually do what they say they can do on the tin so my biggest point to people would be you can come to your own conclusion about the party and what motivates them and their values and from that poll it is clear some people have concerns but if you want to have that straight in/out referendum in Europe, Labour and the Lib Dems just want to give you more Europe, UKIP admit they can’t deliver, you can only get an in/out referendum by voting Conservative.

DM: Tell me about these, I mean taking that on board, the Euro elections, about the three polls Mr Cameron faces within five months.  If he loses them all, if he loses as it seems he will the Euro elections, if you the Conservative party lose the Newark by-election and then Scotland votes yes to independence, do you think questions should be asked about Mr Cameron staying in his position?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, just first and foremost, I don't know about you but I kind of think it’s a good idea to give the electorate an opportunity to have a say rather than pundits, politicians or anyone else to judge the outcome before …

DM: But you are not seriously thinking he is going to win the Euro elections for instance?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well I don’t seriously think we are going to lose all three either.  I think it’s quite right to allow people to have a say and actually we haven’t had any of those elections, least of all the European elections and if you are watching this programme and thinking, do you know what, I do think we have got a bit too much Europe, I do think we have got the wrong relationship with Europe, then our message is possibly the most straightforward – there is only one way to get that change, we need an in/out referendum and you can only get it through voting Conservative and we will give you that in/out referendum.  We need the European MEPs there to back that renegotiation which will take place before you’re given a choice as to whether you like it or not.

DM: I want to ask you a quick question about this burning economic business issue of the time, the Pfizer bid for the British company AstraZeneca.  We understand that there have been conversations, well we know there have been conversations at the very highest level within the government between senior Pfizer executives and assurances have been given about their attitude particularly towards the R&D base that AstraZeneca has here but are these assurances worth anything?  Are you absolutely relaxed about Pfizer taking over this company?

GRANT SHAPPS: First of all can I absolutely say straight up what is most important is that Britain gets to benefit from whatever the deal is and if that can mean more R&D here, more jobs in this country and a great Anglo-American tie- up then that’s good but the government of course has a duty, we haven’t just been talking to Pfizer but we’ve also been talking to AstraZeneca about it as well.  There are good takeovers, bad takeovers, good mergers, bad mergers, we all know that.  What we need is whatever is best for Britain and that means more R&D …

DM:  But you don’t know that until it’s taken place and has we have seen from past experience, I’m thinking Kraft and Cadbury’s, a government can get assurances about jobs and things like that but of course once the deal is all done and dusted the company can do whatever it likes.

GRANT SHAPPS: That’s absolutely right and it’s why we need to have the right kind of assurances in place.  You mentioned Cadbury and Kraft, let me mention Bentley and the way that that’s been transformed, let me mention people like Land Rover and the way that’s been transformed and the fact that we are manufacturing, for example, more cars in this country than ever before is a testament to some of them getting it right.

DM: But that’s not because of assurances that the government got, that’s because it’s a good place to make cars vis a vis Europe and export them and our workforce is very good and co-operative and very skilled.

GRANT SHAPPS: It’s all of those things, don’t get me wrong I passionately believe in the free market, in enterprise, in Britain being one of the most open countries in the world – don’t confuse that for meaning that this government doesn’t believe that it should bat on the side of British workers and the British industrial sector, we absolutely do that every day of the week.  So we will do that and …

DM: What do you think about, we heard from Mr Miliband a few minutes ago this morning on the Marr Show saying there needs to be some pre-scrutiny about potential takeovers like this to make sure they are going to benefit this country and skills within this country?

GRANT SHAPPS: I’ve already made it very clear that’s exactly what we’re doing.  Miliband is a guy who says there are certain companies that are evil and certain companies that are good and just for clarity, the companies that his ministers say, his shadow ministers say are evil are people like John Lewis and Waitrose who they say are predatory companies stealing other people’s business.  If those are the baddies in Miliband’s anti-business world, then goodness help this country from an economic point of view. 

DM: Last question, I want to ask you about the BBC.  You have talked in the past about its lack of a culture of openness, that it struggles to explain itself, its conduct to its public, what do you think about the Jeremy Clarkson row?  Do you think the BBC is right to stand by the presenter?

GRANT SHAPPS: That’s an issue definitely for the BBC.  I think actually it shows how times have changed, we all remember growing up with the horrible nursery rhyme that he was reciting.  My kids come home from school and they have completely different lines for it, that’s how much the world has changed. The BBC are perfectly – and you are right, I am a somebody who likes to keep an eye on what’s going on, encourage greater transparency in broadcast just as there is in politics and business and the rest of it but actually this genuinely is a matter for the BBC to resolve and I think that …

DM: There are other politicians that have spoken out.  If he did use that awful word, which it seems he did, don’t you think he should either resign or they should get rid of him?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, this wasn’t broadcast for one thing and …

DM: Does that make any difference?

GRANT SHAPPS: I think it is for the BBC to make the decision, I don't think it’s for politicians to ride in there and tell them what to do.  I believe that the state broadcaster should be properly independent, in fact one of the things that I commented on before is that it is important that people can see the workings of that independence but no, I am absolutely satisfied in the Clarkson case that the BBC should deal with it.

DM: Okay, Chairman, thank you very much indeed, very good to see you.  Grant Shapps there, the Chairman of the Conservative party.