ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now to politicians of a certain persuasion it’s the key question facing the nation: when should a referendum on Britain’s EU membership be held? In a moment I’ll speak to Conservative backbencher Adam Afriyie, he wants Parliament to vote to grant the country that poll before the next general election. Now the Prime Minister has of course pledged to do it by 2017, after he’s renegotiated the terms of Britain’s membership of the EU. Let’s say a very good morning to Adam Afriyie, you are in effect today saying the Prime Minister is a man not to be trusted.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Not in the slightest. We see one to one, we want the British people to have a say on our European membership and there is a difference on timing. Look, I believe, and I’m with 80% of the British population, that we should have a referendum sooner rather than later because it will bring certainty to our future and I think that’s a good thing.

DM: Okay, but the Prime Minister say later. Why do you want it sooner, is it because you don’t think the Prime Minister will deliver? Nigel Farage was saying just a few minutes ago that he promised a cast iron guarantee that there would be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, it never happened. You don’t trust him do you?

ADAM AFRIYIE: The Prime Minister is a man of his word but what I’m talking about here, it is not a matter of party politics …

DM: But he wasn’t a man of his word on the Lisbon Treaty was he?

ADAM AFRIYIE: Well we know what happened on that, basically it was to do with if it hadn’t been ratified but let’s not go back over that. What we’re talking about here, it is about the British national interest to ensure the British people have a say sooner rather than later and I think that twelve months is a good period for negotiation and what it will do, if this amendment does pass, it will kick-start those negotiations, it will strengthen the Prime Minister’s hand to really negotiate in a tough way the …

DM: But how does that work? Doesn’t it cut him off at the knees? The whole point is on the Prime Minister’s strategy, on the leadership strategy is that you go to the EU and you renegotiate certain powers still to be defined and then you put it to the British people. If you have a vote before the renegotiation then people won’t know what they are voting on.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Well if the amendment passes there will be twelve months for renegotiation and the other key thing, the reason it kick-starts negotiations and strengthens the Prime Minister’s hand is the European leaders would need to think hang on, the British people are going to decide on their future and therefore they’d have to come forward with offers of changes and proposals and they would come forward pretty quickly if they wanted the British people to stay within the European Union so I think it would be a good thing and I think it’s in the national interest and I think it will create business certainty sooner rather than later.

DM: Okay, I mentioned Nigel Farage and we know his view of the Prime Minister, you don’t share that at all? It’s out there that you want to challenge him, that ultimately you want to lead the Conservative party.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Yes, well that’s media tittle-tattle, what I’m talking about here is giving the people a say. Anyone under 56 hasn’t had their say on our membership of the European Union, in fact nobody has had a say on our membership of the European Union because nobody has ever been asked so what I’m saying is that we should have that referendum in 2014 and that is over 50% of the population want that, 80% want the referendum, 80% of businesses as well want the certainty so I think this is a good thing and as a backbencher I have got to examine my conscience. I couldn’t sit here quietly and not give Parliament, every MP the option to search their soul and decide do they really want to have this referendum, in which case it would be better to have it in 2014.

DM: I can understand your argument there but the Prime Minister doesn’t. Are you loyal to David Cameron?

ADAM AFRIYIE: Completely loyal, of course. He’s our party leader but this is not about political parties, this is about what Parliament wants to do. If Parliament decides collectively, if MPs decide overwhelmingly that they want a referendum in 2014 then we will have a referendum in 2014.

DM: So you are loyal to David Cameron, if Number Ten ring you up and say Adam, okay we hear what you say, we’re taking on board your criticism but we’re backing the Wharton private member’s bill which encapsulates the 2017 strategy, would you please drop your amendment, what is your response going to be?

ADAM AFRIYIE: Look, it’s a private member’s bill, it’s a backbencher’s bill which enjoys the Prime Minister’s support, I support the Bill wholeheartedly too. We have a difference on timing and I think it is really important that the British public actually have in front of Parliament an option to bring that referendum forward otherwise I think we’re neglecting our duty.

DM: You’ve said you’re loyal to the leadership, with all these noises coming from Number Ten, we don’t want anything to do with this amendment, we support the Wharton Bill, will you drop it if asked? James Telfer has said he thinks it could sink his Bill as well.

ADAM AFRIYIE: If Parliament, if MPs who are independent minded, of all persuasions, if they decide to back a referendum in 2014 then obviously the government will need to decide whether they want to go along with the will of the British people and the will of Parliament, but look, we’re not there yet. The amendment is tabled on Monday, let’s see how many signatures it attracts and in five weeks’ time we will know the answer to that question.

DM: Okay, so you’re loyal to the Prime Minister, you don’t think he is a man not to be trusted but you think he’s wrong, you think his analysis is wrong don’t you?

ADAM AFRIYIE: No, no, I’m just keen to have the referendum sooner rather than later.

DM: So his strategy is wrong in your book?

ADAM AFRIYIE: Look, I’m not going to get into this. This is a cross-party issue, I’m doing this from my conscience. I believe the British people need to have a say sooner rather than later and I think it would also bring certainty and security for our nation, that’s got to be a good thing.

DM: But you are saying, it’s just logic here isn’t it, the Prime Minister has laid out one strategy, he’s laid it out in detail, it’s very, very clear now that the path under his leadership, the path the Conservative party will follow on Europe. You’re saying I don’t think that is the right way, Prime Minister.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Half the British population want a referendum sooner rather than 2017 …

DM: Ah, you’re the tribune of the people?

ADAM AFRIYIE: 80% of the British people want a referendum, 80% of businesses want a referendum, one in three businesses want a referendum sooner rather than later to secure prosperity for Britain so I think that …

DM: But that’s the point I’m getting at, you feel you can interpret public opinion better than the Prime Minister.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Well this is not … the question is whether or not we have a referendum in 2014, that is what I’m fighting for and we will see whether Parliament and whether MPs when they examine their consciences … look, if your viewers want a referendum before 2015, write, email, telephone your MP and let them know. It is the MPs who are independent minded to make this decision, it is for Parliament to decide.

DM: So what soundings have you made amongst your fellow MPs in the Conservative party and more widely within the House of Commons? Have you got indications that this will attract substantial support?

ADAM AFRIYIE: I think you’ll find already this morning that there are several MPs who are saying they are very keen to have a referendum before 2015 so we’ll have to see how this pans out in the next few weeks, days and weeks, but there is pretty much widespread support that there needs to be a referendum this side of the election.

DM: I mean you are clearly thinking through the consequences but let’s think through them, let’s say you get said referendum on October 23rd next year, the Prime Minister presumably as things stand would have to campaign if it is in or out on the in camp. If he loses, as you want, there is no way he could remain as Prime Minister, he’d have to resign.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Look, let me be clear, this is not about whether one is campaigning for an in or out. My views are very well known, that if we had a referendum today – like Michael Gove – I would vote to come out but it’s not today, it will be twelve months from now and …

DM: But we won’t have renegotiated anything by then.

ADAM AFRIYIE: Twelve months is a very long period of time, just think how many mornings you wake up, it is a very long period of time so the Europeans would come forward with some offers I’m sure, I’m sure we would negotiate very heavily so the picture could be very different then. The point about this amendment – and remember, many people table amendments, I’m surprised everyone is getting so hot under the collar her – many people table amendments, the point of this amendment is to make sure that actually people have their say irrespective of what they want. If people want to stay within Europe, they will probably support this amendment as well because the public will have their say. If they want to come out of Europe they’ll probably want this amendment as well so that they can have their say. This is about giving the British people a say, that’s what they want, that’s what I want to help them get.

DM: But the bottom line of this is, you haven’t answered the point, if the Prime Minister lost an early referendum could he remain as Prime Minister, could he remain as leader?

ADAM AFRIYIE: I think the strength of the Prime Minister mandate, either way that it went in 2014 …

DM: If he lost, even if he lost his mandate?

ADAM AFRIYIE: Well it’s not about winning or losing, we don’t know what the offer is on the table yet, it might be a perfect offer on which everybody agrees. For example if they change the mandate of the European Union from ever closer political union to say ever closer trading harmony, if we got a bit more border control back, if we got more control of our workplace regulation, you never know, even I might change my mind when it comes to the referendum. So I think this could secure actually David Cameron’s premiership, it could either confirm one way or it could decide the other way but either way he’s got a strong mandate then to take the country in the direction that the people have decided they wanted to go.

DM: And would you like to lead the Conservative party one day?

ADAM AFRIYIE: I have no ambition whatsoever to lead the Conservative party. I am ambitious for the British people to make sure we have a government that actually works in their interest and that we can resolve the European issue …

DM: But if the ball came loose from the scrum would you pick it up?

ADAM AFRIYIE: Oh these are very clever analogies and imagery but I’m not going to get involved in them. I’ve made it very clear from, what, from a year ago that I have no interest, I am not ambitious for position, I am ambitious to get the people of Britain to have their say on the European Union.

DM: Okay, Mr Afriyie, thank you very much, very good to see you. Adam Afriyie there.