ANY QUOTES USED MUST ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the Conservative backbencher Adam Afriyie told me this morning he is completely loyal to David Cameron and that forcing the Prime Minister to bring forward a planned referendum on Britain’s EU membership would strengthen the Prime Minister’s hand in negotiations. Well, while the Conservatives row over Europe, the Liberal Democrat leader will speak this week about his party’s stance and in a moment I’ll speak to his Deputy, Simon Hughes, about that and other issues. Well let’s say a very good morning then to Simon Hughes. Are you referenda or not? I mean you don’t want to see one in 2014 or 2017, you don’t think we need one.

SIMON HUGHES: Good morning. Something viewers may not remember is that in this parliament we passed a law to provide for a referendum for the first time ever and the referendum would be triggered at any stage when there was any proposal to move powers from the UK to Brussels. So we have in law for the first time …

DM: But what the Prime Minister is saying is we are being proactive, we’re seeking to renegotiate.

SIMON HUGHES: I understand that but there was an agreement across the coalition parties to respond to the concern that there was this slip in power from the UK to Brussels. The Prime Minister then said that what the Tories wanted was an election in the next parliament and a backbencher has come up with a Bill to do that, we think it has probably got a bit of Tory frontbench support as well.

DM: Do you? He’s had a nod and wink?

SIMON HUGHES: Well I think what everybody assumes in the political system is that …

DM: You think Adam Afriyie has had a nod …?

SIMON HUGHES: No, not Adam, the Bill, the Private Member’s Bill.

DM: Oh James Wharton’s, of course.

SIMON HUGHES: While a backbench Bill technically, it is a Tory general Bill. Adam’s idea is to suddenly have a referendum next year. Can I just say, it would be barmy to do that for two very obvious reasons. Firstly, his argument is that it would strengthen the Prime Minister’s hand – you make a judgement when you’ve had negotiations, not before, so that’s illogical but more importantly, we’re trying to get Britain into a strong economic place, we’re trying to make sure we concentrate on getting out of the recession and we’re gradually doing that. We’re trying to make sure everybody is focused on the jobs that my constituents want and the growth that they want and keeping living standards in place that they can afford. Do it for Scotland and see how much a referendum preoccupies everybody, rightfully, because it is a very important issue. This would completely distract everything we’re trying to do about growth, completely distract our building relations with the new German government which is about to be formed to make sure we make progress and completely distract us from saying that in Europe is the place that we get the most jobs, the most investment and the most strength.

DM: Okay, but by extension Mr Hughes, you say Adam Afriyie is barmy to want it in 2014 but what about 2017? Doesn’t the uncertainty just get kicked further down the road but the uncertainty is there nevertheless and potentially worse, so the Prime Minister’s strategy is a bit barmy?

SIMON HUGHES: Our view, the Liberal view, the Liberal Democrat view for a long time has been it is perfectly proper for the British public to come back to the issue of whether we think we should be in the EU, we therefore legislated for it, there is a provision, it can happen, it’s not likely to happen in this parliament but it could happen in the next parliament. If ever there is a proposal to take power from Britain to Brussels the country will vote and we think that is a reasonable time to do it rather than suddenly to invent an opportunity for a referendum out of the blue when we are still trying to concentrate on getting the economy into best order. So I understand the argument about letting the people have a say but please, please, please let’s get priorities right. I do not get people coming in my surgery saying what I want is a referendum, I get people coming into my surgery saying I want jobs please.

DM: I wanted to ask you about your vast experience as an MP, it is three decades now, you were elected under Thatcher …

SIMON HUGHES: Don’t remind me! Don’t remind me!

DM: So there you were and it was Mrs Thatcher’s second term, wasn’t it, when you were you were elected, have we become more eurosceptic since even then?

SIMON HUGHES: I hate to remind you, it was in Mrs Thatcher’s first term but anyway, it is so long ago, it was in a by-election. But I think we have become more eurosceptic and yet it is actually logical if you think about it because in times of economic difficulty although the tension is we have got to really make sure we don’t have any foreigners here taking our jobs, actually you need your neighbours more. You need the trade opportunities that provides more, you need the business opportunities that provides more. There is an argument that the best prospect for increased job is further increase in the Common Market, in new markets for goods and services for example, nobody seems to dispute that, the energy sector is one sector, renewable industries, green industries and so on. So if you are in this position that is actually not the logical time but there is a greater euroscepticism, not just in this country, in the rest of the world and I think we have to be very careful in times of austerity not to turn in on ourselves and think it is really difficult out there, we would go better on our own. We are not going to get a better trade deal with the United States by the UK negotiating on our own rather than as part of the European Union for example.

DM: Let me widen this out then and bring in Royal Mail privatisation which would be if privatised, when it’s privatised, a business looking for greater opportunities in Europe and beyond. We had Chuka Umunna, the Shadow Business Secretary, in here saying okay, we oppose it in the form it is currently being proposed but if it is going ahead you’re not getting a good enough price for Royal Mail, it’s worth a lot more than that particularly because of its property portfolio.

SIMON HUGHES: I hold to the Liberal Democrat view at the last election and I’m not entirely sold on the current proposal as it could be. I believe that employees should have a share and I support that, that’s a very good idea and I’ve always believed that the majority share should not be in private sector hands, that the combination of the employees and the government should hold the majority share.

DM: That’s the Labour position.

SIMON HUGHES: It’s the position we had at the last general election, I’ve made that clear in the House, I’ve made that clear to Vince Cable my colleague, the Secretary of State. That may still happen because of course nobody knows quite how many shares are going to be sold, I hope that’s what happens and that in my book gives the guarantee that, as it were, the employees, the business and the government don’t lose control of this very important public sector industry.

DM: And what about the price? There are these city analysts saying, some of them are going to benefit from the sale potentially, saying the price may be in the prospectus, it is undervaluing the company as it will become because it’s got this huge property portfolio, lots of them in central London and indeed dotted in cities throughout the country.

SIMON HUGHES: Well I’m aware of that, we have them in my constituency and others. The government would say we are going to do this gradually, we’re going to release them gradually, we are therefore going to get the best of the market and try to get maximum income. I think the government just has to be very careful about that. Of course if you are selling some shares you need to get the best value, I’m not the expert on when the City is going to give us the best value for that but my concern on behalf of my constituents, and I think many other people, is that we don’t lose what has been turned round by this government, because we’ve taken the pension liabilities which were there hanging over the business and dealt with that and the benefit of having employees having a share, which is a good thing, we don’t lose the benefits of that sort of development by selling it either undervalue or selling a majority of shares into the private sector and losing the national interest control.

DM: Let me lastly ask you about press regulation, we’ve been talking about that for at least a couple of years now. Things are coming to a bit of a head this week with the Privy Council meeting on Wednesday, Lord Leveson himself will be questioned at the Select Committee. Do you feel that the prospect of the press getting its way on regulation, self-regulation, it’s charter, has diminished because of the row that’s taken place between the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday in part, and Ed Miliband?

SIMON HUGHES: To be honest, I guess the judgement made by the sub-committee that has been looking at this press proposed charter will have come to their view before the latest row because they will have been looking at this over the summer. It is coming to the Privy Council as you rightly say this week, that’s an independent body, it does its work independently, it has special protection. I sincerely hope, and this is desperately in the public interest, that the Charter proposed by Parliament and all three parties is the Charter that’s backed and that wouldn’t take the press into statutory control, we were very careful about that, but make sure that they have self-control but under a framework that means that they have to do their job properly and just to pick the example of this week, Ed Miliband may have cause for complaint but he said, as I have said often, that my concern, our greatest concern is for ordinary members of the public who never appear on your TV programmes, who get abused, who have people coming in…

DM: Well they do appear on our TV programmes quite a lot.

SIMON HUGHES: Some of them do but other people, the Daily Mail for example I gather, had nine occasions between the end of 2011 and 2012 where there had to be apologies or settlements or something because of invasion of privacy issues. We can argue about the wisdom of the journalism to do with Ed Miliband, the expression of opinion about his father I deprecate but you are allowed to express an opinion. The real benefit of the Press Charter as proposed by parliament is that people will be able to ensure that if the press tell lies about them or invent things about them, there is a remedy.

DM: That is in the Press proposal. Ultimately what you are saying here is that you don’t believe that they would implement it with real teeth.

SIMON HUGHES: The system they have has politicians involved in the process for example, the system that Parliament proposed will not have politicians involved in the process, it is much independent. It’s tougher, it’s more independent and it commands consensus across the political divide and in many places beyond it. The alternative is something where the press determine the system we have and I have to tell you, in your political lifetime and mine the press have been running their own show. They haven’t run it well enough.

DM: The last question on this, where do you see it going? Let’s say okay, you get the politicians Royal Charter approved …

SIMON HUGHES: Parliament’s.

DM: Okay, Parliament’s, but the press say we’re not going to go along with this, we’re not going to sign up to it, what then happens?

SIMON HUGHES: I’m not going to cross that bridge. A lot of the press have said they are willing to support it, let’s see if … Look, they’ve been playing a game, they wanted to derail this all the time, Lord Leveson was very clear about his proposals. They’ve gone to the Privy Council for approval, of course there will be a lot of noise and a lot of effort to destabilise it, there’s an alternative on the table. What I hope will happen is when the new system is in place, the one that Parliament has supported and Lord Justice Leveson after a great inquiry recommended, I think the press if they’re wise will say we’re going to play by the rules. It is not in their interest to be offending the public for the next five years as badly as they have in the last.

DM: Okay, Simon Hughes, thank you very much indeed, always good to see you. I’m still mulling over thirty years in the House, you’d better watch out, you’ll end up Father of the House!

SIMON HUGHES: I hope we’re both wearing relatively well.

DM: Okay, Simon Hughes there.