ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, the Policing Minister Damien Green has told Sky News that the police in England and Wales need to be more transparent. He says recent allegation about corruption and malpractice have caused a serious drag on the row and on public confidence in the police. In a moment I’ll speak to the former Metropolitan Police Commissioner, he is of course Lord Blair, but first I’m joined by one of the country’s most senior police officers, Peter Fahy, he is Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police and of course Vice-President of the Association of Chief Police Officers, ACPO. A very good morning to you, Sir Peter. So that direct question, do you agree with the Policing Minister that police morale is pretty low at the moment?

PETER FAHY: Well I think if you carried out a survey of any public servants at the moment they would say that morale was low but when you look at what police officers are doing day in, day out, the way that they have absorbed the cuts, the budget cuts, which have been enormous. Here in Manchester this weekend we have got two really complex murder investigations, we had a really difficult demonstration by right wing groups yesterday, a major music festival – officers are just getting on and doing the job day in, day out . Obviously as you were talking before the break, they are affected by what feels like a constant stream of negative stories at the moment but you have got to bear in mind that some of my officers weren’t even born at the time of Hillsborough and things like undercover policing is carried out by a tiny number of officers but of course the impact of all the negative publicity does affect the whole force.

DM: Does it then have an effect on the bread and butter policing that the public really care about, what you call the day in, day out where police officers come in to work, they can do it today, pick up a paper and see on the front page of the Sunday Times a huge story about police corruption?

PF: No, they don’t. All we see is officers and staff who go out there every day and do their very, very best, deal with some of the most difficult problems in society and that’s what I see. I’ll talk to my officers and they’ll say absolutely morale is low but on the other hand I love my job and I’m really passionate about what I do. What I see day in and day out is officers and staff going to extraordinary lengths, working ridiculous hours, taking person risks to try and serve the public but I’ll be honest with you, some of them do say to me things like why do all politicians hate the police? I have to say no, it’s not quite like that, I deal with Theresa May, the Home Secretary, and other politicians and they’re trying to do their best but I think it’s not just the big stories, Dermot, I think it’s what feels like a constant stream of more low key negative stories, almost alleging that the police are obsessed with political correctness and health and safety and I’m concerned that the reality of what officers face on the street is getting further and further away from the way it is often related sometimes by the media and some of the commentators, particularly in London.

DM: Is the confrontation over … is it the cuts that are underlying it all really, this disconnect between politicians and the police at the moment?

PF: Well we don’t think it is. I mean all the evidence is, isn’t it, that police forces and police officers and staff have got on with continuing to serve the public, bringing crime down, dealing with a whole host of other issues and we’ve had to make big changes to absorb the cuts but we’ve got on with it. Our officers and staff haven’t gone on strike like in other organisations, we’ve absolutely gone and done our best. We’re realistic about the freeze on pay and increments, I think for most officers it was painful, it was painful particularly around the pension changes but again they are realistic, they like in the real world, they’ve got on and done it. I think absolutely what is affecting morale is a feeling that a lot of the officers and staff are undervalued, that the public and the media don’t often appreciate the reality of what officers are dealing with, some of the difficult issues around mental health, deprivation, some of the activities of criminals and the feeling that sometimes the stories are viewed in the most negative way, a negative spin put on it and also, as I say, that there is a lot of judgement by armchair generals and almost professors in hindsight, not taking into context what was the state of society and the things officers were asking us to do at the time when some of these events occurred.

DM: Sir Peter, thank you very much indeed for your thoughts. Peter Fahy there, from the Greater Manchester Police and we hear now the thoughts of Lord Blair, the former Met Police Commissioner of course, viewing it from the outside now. Do you think this relationship that Peter was discussing between the politicians in particular and the police, has it deteriorated?

LORD BLAIR: I certainly think it was a very difficult start for that relationship when the coalition came in. I mean the cuts were enormous, unprecedented and out of scale with everything else. We then had a really difficult series of events from the past. I was struck this morning that the General Synod of the Church of England is going to apologise for historic abuse this morning and you think it is the same period, it’s Hillsborough, a lot of this stuff about the undercover stuff is in the same period. We seem to have got an idea of going back into the past, it’s as if – and I think quite rightly – the Savile inquiry has unearthed a sense that there is some unfinished business there that needs to be sorted out.

DM: And the 20 something officer on the street thinks what on earth has this got to do with me?

LORD BLAIR: It is extremely difficult and I think Sir Peter is absolutely right, I thought he did an excellent interview there and I don’t want to be an armchair general that’s for sure! But I think there is a problem with morale at the bottom of the scale as it were, the frontline officers doing exactly what he said, such a fantastic job, I think they can see the cuts and they can see more cuts coming and the job gets harder. They have also reduced the starting pay of officers very considerably and I think that will produce some difficulties but at the top end, I think the police chiefs can see that the sum is greater than its parts. All these stories come together and form a picture of the police service that was in a pretty bad state 30 years ago and is now of course accounting for that. At the same time you have got the issue with Police and Crime Commissioners, you may remember the Chief of Gwent, Carmen Napier, was forced to resign and so there is a sense that their jobs aren’t secure at the top as well.

DM: Okay Lord Blair, thank you very much indeed and for reviewing the papers earlier for us as well, a very busy day for you!