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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now trade unions hold a huge amount of political influence in Britain of course but on the whole they have stayed neutral on the crucial issue of Scottish independence, why is that?  Well the Trades Union Congress represents the majority of trades unions in England and Wales and their annual conference begins today in Liverpool and their General Secretary, Frances O’Grady joins me from there.  A very good morning to you, which way would you like to see Scotland vote?

FRANCES O’GRADY: Well the British TUC represents workers across the whole of the UK but we’ve taken a position of neutrality, as has the Scottish TUC, because we think it is a matter for the Scottish people to decide but what I think politicians on both sides of the debate need to realise is that people are feeling under real pressure on their pay and living standards, energy bills, transport bills rising and they need to tell us what would be better for working people. 

DM: They are common problems, as you describe there, common problems on both sides of the border, it would have huge implications, a yes vote, would it not for the trades union movement? 

FRANCES O’GRADY: Well I think a yes vote would have big implications clearly for the whole country but for sure there are questions about whether working people would be better off or not.  Certainly it would impact on collective bargaining arrangements and so on but I think there is a very strong feeling amongst trade unionists that we are always going to have more in common with each other than we’ll ever have frankly with a Scottish banker, a former banker, or with the offspring of English aristocrats.  Working people are concerned about pay, about getting a decent living, about being able to bring up our children and have the opportunity of a good home and a decent working life, so not too much to ask and those are the issues that I think people want to hear debated. 

DM: Well so from that you think the union movement would be better together, so to speak? 

FRANCES O’GRADY: Well, our values are always that working people are better together and I think there is growing concern about the way that the economy is increasingly dominated by big corporations who frankly don’t salute any flag, whether that’s Scottish, English or the Union Jack. 

DM: Okay, let’s talk specifically then about that issue we are touching on there and the impact of the Trade Union Congress, the trade union movement, on it because we talked didn’t we, I remember, just before you took the role there, it was over 18 months ago and you talked to me about the huge campaigns ahead on the issue of cuts and pay.  It doesn’t seem to have had any impact.

FRANCES O’GRADY: Well I think we’ve rallied public opinion and certainly if you talk to health workers, nurses, midwives, they are very, very angry that this government has unilaterally ignored the evidence based advice of its independent pay review body in recommending a pay rise and instead they are not going to get a penny. 

DM: Well that’s the point, they’re angry but they are still getting their pay cut aren’t they?

FRANCES O’GRADY: I think that’s why many people feel this is going to be one of the most important general elections in a generation.  It’s really about what kind of Britain we are going to be, whether we are going to have decent jobs, well paid, well skilled, whether people are going to have a decent standard of living and whether they get to share in the benefits of the economic recovery that this government keeps telling us about. 

DM: But the question is really, Ms O’Grady, how able do you feel the trade union movement is, the TUC is to influence events, it’s been much described hasn’t it as the waning of the TUCs power.

FRANCES O’GRADY: Well we’re six million strong, six million ordinary decent men and women who understand that we have got to band together if we’re going to have any chance of evening up the imbalance there is in an employment relationship, any employment relationship.   People need to band together to get their voice heard so of course we need to grow, of course we need to attract a new generation of workers but we also need a government that is on the side of working people. 

DM: Do you think you are going to face more laws though to marginalise you ever further?  There is much talk of this issue of union ballots of course and perhaps having a minimum requirement of 50% of members taking part in any vote particularly on industrial action.

FRANCES O’GRADY: Well of course to many people it feel quite bizarre that the government is having another go at attacking unions when we have already got one of the toughest frameworks of law in the western world, when what they should be focused on is how to improve people’s living standards. The unions are part of the answer, we know that where workforces are unionised they’ve got a much better chance of getting decent pay and decent conditions, paid holidays, family friendly working and the like, so the government really should be looking at how to spread unions influence and not give us another knocking. 

DM: On the issue of wages, which we have touched on, let’s focus on that – because of the way our modern economy works, what government is able – whatever hue it is – to really influence the great bulk of wages?  Okay, we’ve got the public sector and we’ve got the Minimum Wage but beyond that it’s not possible to make a company pay whatever wage it likes.  

FRANCES O’GRADY: There is lots more that the government could be doing.  As you say, higher minimum wage, it could be leading by example by giving its own workers a living wage and stop rejecting the recommendations of the independent pay review bodies for a modest increase, so there’s lots that the government could be doing including working with unions to ensure every worker gets a voice in Britain.  

DM: General Secretary, thank you very much indeed, that’s Frances O’Grady the General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress.