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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now a group of senior MPs has launched a campaign backing gay marriage. As you heard earlier, Boris Johnson is on board as is the Education Secretary, Michael Gove. It’s led by former Home Office Minister, Nick Herbert, and he joins me now from Arundel, a very good morning to you Mr Herbert. Why is this such a priority now for the government, aren’t there other much, much bigger economic fish to fry at the moment?

NICK HERBERT: Well there are certainly other very important things to do and that’s why I think the Prime Minister is right to say let’s just get on with this, let’s give Conservative Members of Parliament a free vote. I believe there is a majority in the House of Commons for this change and that there will be a majority in the Lords and therefore we don’t need to detain Parliament for any longer than necessary on it. But we can’t just say that any social reform has to be parked because there are other issues, if we’d done that there wouldn’t have been any of the great changes that have been made over the last few years so I think it is the right thing to do and I think that we should get on with it.

DM: You left out one of the majorities that perhaps isn’t there, a majority within your own party. Doesn’t this have the potential to really divide the Conservatives?

NH: Well I hope ultimately it won’t. I mean these are issues of conscience and one of the things that our initiative, Freedom to Marry, is saying today is that we do understand that people have profound religious beliefs and those include people who are not homophobic and I think it’s important to say that and we are calling not just for same sex marriage to be accepted but also for religious freedom, churches should be allowed to do this if they want to and the Quakers today for instance, and others, have written to the Observer and said we want to be able to do this, what business is it of the state to prevent them from doing so? But equally, no church denomination should be forced to do this by the state against its wishes so that the Anglican church, the Catholic church, can go on exercising their conscience and I think that’s the right balance.

DM: Okay, stay with us, Mr Herbert, because I’ve got one of your colleagues here, Peter Bone, with me who I know thinks very differently. First of all just on the arithmetic, how strong do you feel is the feeling within the Conservative party against this form of gay marriage?

PETER BONE: Well if it was a genuine free vote, which it isn’t, I reckon most Conservative Members of Parliament would vote against it. What I think we do need to do on this is talk about this in a rational and reasonable way without hate and I was really disappointed with Nick’s letter to the Telegraph which implied that most people who oppose the redefinition of marriage are homophobic, I think that’s …

DM: Well I think he can speak for himself but he just said he didn’t say that.

PETER BONE: No, but it’s in the Telegraph, I’ve read it and I think that’s a great … and Boris Johnson put his name to it, Michael Gove put his name to it and I think that’s a mistake. I think Nick needs to clear that up but that’s not what he said.

DM: Well I’ll bring Mr Herbert back in on that. Peter Bone is saying that there was an implication that you were suggesting that people who oppose it were homophobic.

NH: Well I would urge people to read the article, it’s online and it says exactly, precisely the opposite. I’ve said that I understand people who have a conscience about this and who are not homophobic so I said precisely the opposite and I completely agree, we need to conduct this debate in a reasonable way but what’s clear is that the majority of the public in all of the polls that have been conducted independently are in favour of this change and it goes across almost every social group and every part of the country. I think this is something that the public broadly support.

DM: Okay, let’s get to the heart of this, Peter Bone, I mean people are going to say to you what is your problem with this? Okay, you personally may oppose it but a lot of gay people want to get married, sometimes in churches, sometimes somewhere else but they want to go beyond the civil partnership. No church, no religious institution or organisation is going to be forced to do this, where is the issue with this?

PB: Well I think you’re wrong on many of the things you’ve just said but first of all….

DH: Well that’s what the Prime Minister has said.

PB: And the Prime Minister is absolutely wrong on this. This cast iron guarantee he’s given that nobody will be forced, no church will be forced to marry is obviously false because the European courts will intervene. So if you allow, if you say that marriage is not solely between a man and a woman, which is the case at the moment, therefore there can be no European Court intervention, if you broaden this to allow some churches to do it, what will happen when a couple go to a local church, same sex, saying that they want to be married, that church turns them down, they’re off to the European Court and hey-ho, all churches will be forced to do it. That’s what will happen and I don’t care what people say now, that everyone knows is what will happen down the line unless it is stopped now and I just believe, as millions of people do in this country, that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that and why should our religious freedom be ….

DM: You personally believe and it is a moral position as well then, do you personally believe that civil partnerships were a step too far?

PB: No, I believe in civil partnerships because it gives all the same rights and the reason civil partnerships were bought in were to give all the legal protections that a marriage does. The point is people, I would argue and millions I hope across the country will argue, that from our point of view marriage is solely between a man and a woman. Now what I think, you can redefine that, of course you can but there must be a proper debate, it must be in the party’s manifesto, people must have an opportunity to vote and it was in no party manifesto, there is no mandate for the Prime Minster to do this and he is absolutely wrong to be doing it now and he is splitting the Conservative party when we don’t need it to be split.

DM: Okay, Nick Herbert, you heard all that but just on that narrow issue there – or is it a narrow issue – that European legislation, European courts could get involved in this and Peter Bone doubts the ability of no church or religious institution being forced into carrying out such a ceremony.

NB: Well I think this is a red herring and I think that we can fairly easily allay the concerns of those people who think this will happen. Parliament will pass a law, I’m absolutely certain, to make it absolutely clear that no church should be forced to do this against its will and the European Court has declined on repeated occasions to get involved in this issue, it will not uphold same sex marriages because under Article Nine of the European Convention on Human Rights, religious freedom is protected. So I don't think you will find serious lawyers saying that there is any likelihood at all of a challenge here and ultimately, anyway, and Peter and I would agree about this, Parliament is sovereign and Parliament will decide what is the right thing to do so I think that we can with complete confidence give the churches the assurance that they need that they will not be forced to do this if they don’t want to but I think it is time to realise that civil partnerships were a huge step forward, I personally have been immensely grateful for the courage of politicians in legislating for that but they are not marriages, they don’t confer quite the same significance as civil partnerships do and that’s why so many people and a majority of the country think it is right to change the law.

DM: Okay, Nick Herbert, thank you very much and just the last word from Peter Bone on that. Parliament is sovereign, you’re going to have to swallow this but can you move on within the Conservative party?

PB: It is not sovereign, Nick knows that and that’s why he and I both support reform of the European Court but we’ve got a real problem here. We’ve got something the Prime Minister has introduced, it’s a bit of a … well it’s a huge own goal and it’s going to divide us. There are going to be MPs now who will not talk to each other. I am hugely annoyed that I have been described as homophobic because in the letter that Nick says he sent and is in the paper, he says many people who oppose it are not homophobic implying that the majority are. He has got to stop doing those sorts of things, have a rational debate on this, it’s an important argument but please don’t label people who oppose it as homophobic.

DM: Okay, so you think it will rankle for a while?

PB: It is going to cause a great amount of damage within the Conservative party.

DM: Okay, Peter Bone, thank you very much indeed and our thanks once again to former Home Office Minister, Nick Herbert, who I believe has just left us in Arundel.