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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Joining me now is the Secretary of State for Justice, Chris Grayling, a very good morning to you Mr Grayling.  Wouldn’t it be better before they end up on your watch, and we are going to talk about the extra help you may be able to offer these service personnel in prisons, wouldn’t it be better if they didn’t end up there in the first place?  Aren’t you saying to the MoD, to Iain Duncan Smith, there must be more help that we can give these people before this happens?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Oh undoubtedly, this is not about, today about trying to make that piece happen but a lot of work is going on to try and make sure the transition is a better one than it has been in the past, it’s part of the Military Covenant, work done within the Armed Forces, work done within Job Centre Plus.  We certainly have to work to make sure there is a smooth transition and what you heard there is absolutely right, it is a move from a very institutional environment in the Armed Forces where yes, you have huge responsibilities on behalf of your country but there is very substantial support …

DM: So something is going wrong but there is nothing you can do about that, you’re the Justice Secretary, so as I say they end up on your watch, so how are you going to make life inside prison for those that unfortunately end up there, how are you going to make it better for them?

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well the first big change is we’re going to ask everybody.  It is quite an extraordinary position to be in but when I started asking the questions a year or so ago people said they didn’t really know how many people in the Armed Forces, and of course some people don’t want it to be known.  You know, if you have served your country, if you’ve worn a badge of pride and then end up in our prison system this is not something you are proud of or happy with so there are some people who don’t want us to know but it’s really important that we do in order to understand what support we can provide.  

DM: So you find out they have been in the Armed Forces but what special help can they get, given the pressures there are on resources as we have talked about in the past?   

CHRIS GRAYLING: We have.  The first thing is about better training for our staff so that they know how to work with and support those people and to identify them and spot particular problems but it is also about the partnership with the organisations that are specialists in helping those who have been in the Armed Forces.  Take one example, combat stress, which is based very close to my own constituency where it specialises in helping those who have been in the front line, who have ended up with post-traumatic stress disorder and so forth, there is no doubt that some people in that position end up in our prisons.  Partnerships with voluntary sector organisations that offer that sort of specialist skill, as you saw in that report, are a big part of what we need to do but of course we can’t deliver that support if we don’t know who the people are.  

DM: So practically, are they going to be getting help in these prisons, these ex-service personnel, corralled off from others who are being denied access to remedial language skills, all those kinds of things which should go on for all the prison population.  There aren’t enough resources to go around so we’ll just do it for the ex-servicemen?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I think there are two points. These are people who have served our country, served our country in some of the most difficult and challenging circumstances.  I think we have a duty of care to them and of course it is important to remember in this that most of the people who serve our country don’t end up in the criminal justice system, this is a minority who do but that’s really important, I do think we have that duty of care.  But otherwise, of course we have a task to support those who end up in our prisons.  One of the things I’m very pleased about is that even in tough times financially, the number of prisoner qualifications is going up.  Last week we completed the contracting of a new programme that will provide proper support for those post-prison who have never had it before, those who have had short sentences and of course by identifying those people who have been in our armed forces, we can make sure that when they are released from prison they get proper support as well now.

DM: Don’t some members, ex-members of the armed forces, for whatever reasons, carry out crimes that are so horrible that they don’t deserve this special treatment?  Aren’t there some there that shouldn’t be getting this extra help?

CHRIS GRAYLING: I think we have to accept that those people who are serving in our Armed Forces, particularly over the last ten or fifteen years where most have served in theatres of combat have seen or experienced themselves terrible situations.  I think we have to accept they have been through a particular challenge in life and that’s why we have a duty of care to them.  

DM: Okay but there are a lot of these cases in the press, I dug one of these out, let’s talk about Lance Corporal Ian Lowe, served in a theatre of combat in Afghanistan, launched what the judge described as a frenzied revenge attack and cold blooded murder and stabbed his ex-girlfriend to death in front of their four year old son.  Does he deserve special treatment?

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I’m not going to give you responses to individual cases but what I would say is look …

DM: 28 years, a minimum 28 year sentence, does he deserve special treatment?

CHRIS GRAYLING: … particularly those who have served in Afghanistan, there is a big psychological impact.  We see very regular examples of battlefield stress, of those who have suffered mentally as a result of what they’ve seen and experienced and they do go on …

DM: And he said to his four year old son after he killed her, ‘Mummy’s gone’.  

CHRIS GRAYLING: So we do need to make sure that those people who are in that position get support as and when appropriate.  Yes, it’s a very, very tiny minority who will commit horrendous crimes but …

DM: You say that but you know the estimates, up to 25% of service personnel who are in prison are in for some kind of sexual offence.  

CHRIS GRAYLING: We need to understand the nature of what has gone wrong in their lives and to prepare them for release so that they don’t reoffend.

DM: We’ve heard you say about tough justice for a lot of the prison population but for service personnel, even those who have raped and murdered, they are going to get special treatment?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: I think those people who have served our country in Afghanistan and Iraq, have dealt with all the stresses and challenges of doing so, who end up in a bad place, I think we need to recognise what’s behind their offending and to prepare them in a way that makes them ….

DM: You are very understanding all of a sudden, Justice Secretary.  Nirmal Gill, another case, battered his wife to death with a dumb bell because he went to split up with him, she laughed at him so he killed her.  Special circumstances?

CHRIS GRAYLING: So when somebody commits a terrible crime and when there is, as there sometimes is, a link back to the mental trauma they have suffered in the theatre of war, it is surely right that we understand that and we work with them and make sure that when they come to be released, as all of these offenders will be in the end, that they are actually able to return to civilian life better prepared for life in the community.

DM: But should some of them return to civilian life?  Aren’t there some crimes that deserve whole life sentences?  Some of them we don’t want to see back on the streets, even service personnel.

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well of course there are.  The number of former offenders who deserve whole life sentences of course fortunately is very tiny and what I would say is that the vast majority of people we are talking about will be like everyone else in for a short sentence, a few months or a few years, will be released and if we don’t understand the things that have taken them there – and actually I don’t want, it is a terrible situation where we have got people who have served our country, serviced in our Armed Forces, coming out into civilian life and ending up in the criminal justice system and I think we’ve got a duty of care to try to make sure that if the do, we do everything we can to make sure they don’t come back there.

DM: Even the murderers and rapists?

CHRIS GRAYLING: Everyone will be released in the end.  I want them to come back out in a way that we can actually make sure that they do not reoffend.

DM: Okay, so therefore they are rehabilitated, let me ask you about that rehabilitation then, the high profile case of the footballer Ched Evans, rehabilitated, did a terrible crime, has served his time – should he be allowed to take up his old profession again?

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well given the fact that I am responsible for the probation systems he is part of, I am not going to comment on the individual case. What I would say is where an offender leaves prison clearly it is desirable that we get them back into employment, that we get them back into normal life so that they don’t reoffend.  There are some categories of profession where actually it is not possible to return to your previous job, working with children for example and so therefore this debate will always happen when someone has a high profile and controversial job.  Now in this particular case, because he is part of the probation system I am not going to talk about his individual circumstance but it is always a balance between making sure that we rehabilitate offenders properly, we get them back into the community, doing a constructive job, not reoffending but also accepting that there are some roles in life that people who have offended can’t return to.

DM: I’ve got to ask you another question that is in the news today, it’s not on your particular area of responsibility but of course it is your government, the National Health story about fiddling the ambulance waiting time figures, as mentioned in the news there, from eight minutes to nineteen minutes.  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well my understanding is that this is not something that has been decided, it is not something that has been approved by the Secretary of State and it is part of work that is being done to look at different options as to how we ensure we provide the right support to people at the right time.  But the Secretary of State for Heath, Jeremy Hunt, I’m absolutely certain will not give the go ahead to something that weakens the support that the ambulance service provides to our community.  If what we end up with is a package that improves emergency care then I know he will look thoughtfully at that but no decision has been taken right now.

DM: Okay but you’re really worried aren’t you?  This is your weak flank, as we heard, into the general election, the NHS?  You must be incredibly worried about a big winter crisis blowing up with only a few months to go.

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well the NHS today is treating far more patients than five years ago, it’s got more doctors, it’s got more nurses than five years ago, the demands on it are constant because people are developing new treatments virtually every week and every month, we’ve got an ageing population which is good, we’re all living longer but that brings challenges in its own right. So we’ve got a health service that’s doing a first rate job of dealing with continually increasing challenges and we have provided £2 billion more for it in the autumn statement in recognition of those challenges.  We are constantly going to be looking for ways of doing things differently so that we can improve patient care.

DM: Justice Secretary, thank you very much indeed.  Chris Grayling there.