ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, the Labour leader has said he will try to, in his words, ‘accommodate’ different opinions on the future of Britain’s nuclear deterrent, Trident, despite his own belief it should be scrapped.  It is after a warning from one of the men Jeremy Corbyn sacked earlier this month that ditching Trident would be barmy.  Well I am joined now by the new Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry and a very good morning to you.  You agree with Jeremy Corbyn about Trident, are you and he and others getting towards the position where, when we are talking about jobs, you want to keep the submarines, the Trident submarines, but not have them armed with nuclear warheads, that seemed to be what Jeremy Corbyn was saying this morning on Marr?

EMILY THORNBERRY: The first thing I would say, Dermot, is calm down.  The defence review …

DM: I’m pretty calm.

EMILY THORNBERRY: The defence review was launched on Friday and what we need to be able to do is we need to be able to look at, we will start first of all with what are the threats, what are the current threats to us in Britain because our overwhelming priority is to make sure that Britain is safe and so we need to make sure that we have policies that address 21st century threats and not necessarily 20th century threats.  So let’s begin with that and move from there and actually we will need to talk to a wide range of people and we will need to be collecting in views.  I have been struck by the generosity of people who have already been in touch with me and who have been giving me their views and wanting to speak to me and wanting to see me and I think this is a debate whose time has come, we need to be in for a proper defence review.

DM: Well one of the views you’ll be hearing very strongly and we’ll be hearing in a few minutes is of course those of the unions, one of the most powerful unions Unite, who believe with others that thousands of jobs depend on maintaining the nuclear deterrent.

EMILY THORNBERRY: Yes, of course it is and it is a very serious consideration.

DM: Do you accept that?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think that there is a debate around how many jobs are specifically attached to the renewal of Trident and how many have a wider capability.  We have to look at whether or not we want to be able to keep a future capability even if we were to decide to cut back on the number of submarines, everything is …

DM: So getting back to that first point I made, you could get to the position where you keep the submarines, they’re useful, but they don’t have to have nuclear warheads on board?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Many of us have … I go into this being sceptical about renewing Trident, everyone knows that, I’m not being dishonest about it but I do go into it not being afraid to ask some serious questions, far reaching questions, being brave about this and actually looking at let’s try and make sure that we look at 21st century threats, let’s try and find a solution for it and let’s try and find that collectively.  It’s going to be difficult, of course it’s going to be difficult but I have to say I relish the chance of being able to try to look at modern solutions. In the end that’s what we need to be, we need to not be afraid to be modernisers on this issue.

DM: I want to get back to the review process in a moment or two but you mentioned 21st century threats and one of the major ones we all know about is IS, ISIL, Islamic State, do you feel there should be lines of communication opened up to find out the true motivation and direction of IS?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think that even those of us who were against the action in Syria, now that the RAF are there we give them our full support but the solution has to be found through diplomatic channels and …

DM: So that’s talking to them?

EMILY THORNBERRY: So it means diplomatic channels and so therefore there are the Vienna talks beginning and we need to make sure – because in the end if that doesn’t succeed, then we won’t find a solution to this.

DM: With respect, IS isn’t at the Vienna talks of course, do you think that some kind of channel should be open to IS?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Well I think that if you look back to what happened in Northern Ireland there weren’t direct talks but there were some forms of communication that were open but in the end I think you have to have a political solution and it would be difficult to know what on earth it was that Daesh wanted and what on earth it …

DM: So as in you draw parallels with Northern Ireland, through intermediaries?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I’m not getting into this, what I am saying – and you know – is that you cannot find a solution to Syria without a political solution.

DM: Okay, back to the Trident process, the review.  Can you clear this up for us because we thought that Ken Livingstone, former Mayor of London, was going to be leading it but apparently you’ve had a nice long lunch in Islington, an hour and a half, Ken Livingstone has come out of it and said well I won’t be leading it, I’ll still be contributing to it, because Emily and I agree on everything.  Is that true?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I love Ken, I really do.  He won my complete admiration, not necessarily for the congestion charge or for nurseries or all sorts of things, he won my admiration forever when he took the leadership that he did on 7/7.  I was sitting in the tea room, I was in tears, I didn’t know when those bombs had gone off what I was to do, I had only been an MP for a few weeks and I had a bunch of kids coming on that tube line, on that tube line coming up to see me and I didn’t know what to do and he came on the television and he took a leadership role and was brilliant.

DM: But if he’s sitting behind you on the defence review?

EMILY THORNBERRY: This is my review, I’m sorry, this is my review.  It will feed into an international policy commission which is part of a national policy forum and Ken is a co-chair of the commission.

DM: So hold on, he is not actually sitting round the table with you on the review, is that what you’re saying?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I’m going to be collecting evidence, I am doing it in an open way.  I want to encourage people to be involved, I will have meetings, I will share the evidence that I collate and if people want to come to some of the meetings they will be very welcome.  I want to be able to have a proper debate.  You’re looking very puzzled but this is what I want to do.

DM: But Ken is quoted in the Times yesterday saying in actual fact he is still very much involved, he is just letting you lead it.

EMILY THORNBERRY: He is very much involved, it will be his commission – well the commission that he co-chairs will get my report but it is my report.

DM: Okay, loud and clear, are you listening Ken?  What about when you come … how are you going to reach a conclusion on policy?  There is some confusion about this, could it be a digital ballot, will it be a conference, will it be the Shadow Cabinet?  Who will decide the Labour party’s policy on Trident?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Okay, okay, now concentrate.  So I do my report, it then feeds into the National Policy Forum.  The National Policy Forum are the ones that will be looking at it and writing documents and potentially making recommendations to Labour Party conference.  Labour Party conference in the end are the ones who make policy.  Now it may well be that … I mean I really want to encourage Labour party members to get onto the Labour party website and to tell me what it is that they think, I want to have a level of engagement at a higher level than we’ve ever had before but that’s the level of engagement we want.

DM: But power lies with conference?

EMILY THORNBERRY: The rules are that power lies with conference, conference makes policy.  Our current policy is continual at-sea deterrent with a review and in accordance with Labour party policy as set down by Labour party conference I am doing the review.

DM: I’ve got that but of course there is timing here isn’t there?  Conference isn’t until the autumn and of course there may be a vote on Trident well before that, in which case will Mr Corbyn and you recommend a free vote again?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I’m going to get on with doing this review.  I don't think it is likely that ... first of all we don’t know when the vote is going to be, there is lots of speculation but let’s say that the Tories decide to try and have a vote in March.  The question would be, a vote about what?  Will the Treasury and the Ministry of Defence have come to an agreement by that stage?  Will they be in a position to be able to have what they are calling, are they calling it a gateway or a main gate vote?  So are we going to be at that stage voting, who knows?

DM: Those are the straws in the wind so what do Labour do?  Having not decided its overall policy do you allow a free vote again to not split the party?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Sorry, I don’t want to be boring about this but you have to first of all think what are we going to be voting on, is it going to be anything of any substance and if the review has not got to the stage – which it won’t have done – whereby I can make recommendations to the National Policy Forum that will then feed into conference, we will be in the state of having a review.

DM: So would you abstain then?  Am I correct, would you recommend abstention for all Labour MPs?

EMILY THORNBERRY: No, we’d need to be … As I say, we’d need to have a look at the vote, we’d need to see what it is that they actually, if they are trying to make a decision or if they are just messing around, and we obviously will have to have discussions with the leader and the Chief Whip and we’ll decide at that point what we are going to do.  But Jeremy said that he wants to accommodate people.

DM: Okay, public questions, when you were appointed …

EMILY THORNBERRY: I’m sorry, the other thing, it’s really important this thing about Jeremy saying that he wants to accommodate people because I do think this review has to be done against a background of us having respect for each other actually and trusting each other.  In order for us to have any chance of coming to a collective decision, we need to be able to do it in a …

DM: Okay, let’s move it on.  The Falklands and Gibraltar, are they relics of Empire?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think the Falklands and Gibraltar have British people living on them and they want to remain British.

DM: Do you want them to remain British?

EMILY THORNBERRY: They want to remain British and it’s for them to decide.

DM: But as long as they decide you don’t think there should be talks with Argentina, talks with Spain at some point, they should be consulted?  I asked you if they were relics of Empire, of course they are, they date back to the Empire, they are not geographically very close to the UK.

EMILY THORNBERRY: Yes but I think since they are populated with British people who want to remain British, I think that life could be made easier potentially for these people by having discussions with Argentina and Spain but my view would be if anyone was to ask me, that whilst those people wish to remain British, they should remain British.

DM: Okay and there have been questions within the party as well and I suppose it flows on from your attitude towards Trident, what about NATO?  Things have changed an awful lot since NATO was formed, haven’t they, does Britain still need to be part of it?

EMILY THORNBERRY: This review is done within the context of us staying within the international agreements that we’re in.  I’m not talking about NATO, we are in NATO, we’re not talking about pulling out of Europe or NATO or the United Nations or anything, this review is about – given the agreements, the things that we have signed up to, are we doing our job as well as we could do in order to make sure that Britain is safe.

DM: You talk about accommodating views, those are views I’m quoting to you that have come out from other members of the party.

EMILY THORNBERRY: Well I’m not doing that.

DM: So you’re not accommodating views about leaving NATO?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I am not accommodating a view about leaving NATO.

DM: Well you’re being very tough here, not having Ken there and not accommodating views about leaving NATO.  Can I ask you what about Donald Trump who may well or who has a shot at becoming the next President of the United States, do you think he should be banned from the United Kingdom as is going to be debated in the House?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Personally I think the best thing would be for him to come to Britain and to hear what it is that British people think of him, frankly.  I think that he needs educating, he has some very peculiar views about Britain, he has some very peculiar views about London, I would love to show him round real London and show him how it is that we’re an exceptional city and he clearly doesn’t understand.

DM: Does that feed into your overall view then about, the large debate about freedom of speech, how far does it go, who should be banned, who should be allowed a platform because their views are too unsavoury to hear and who shouldn’t?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think some of the things that he has said about women have been absolutely despicable, I think some of the things that he has said about gay people are outrageous but as I say, I think he needs educating about London and Britain and so many of us I think would be quite happy to show him around and show him a few truths.

DM: Okay, last question.  When you were appointed into your role relatively recently of course, you were asked about your experience for the job in defence and you referred on British Forces Broadcasting that you were an Honorary Lieutenant General because of your work …

EMILY THORNBERRY: Colonel.

DM: Colonel, sorry, Lieutenant Colonel, I’ve got to get the rank correct – because of your work as a Barrister on Court Martials.  The Ministry of Defence said they don’t do that kind of thing.

EMILY THORNBERRY: Yes, I’m a bit confused about this because that’s certainly what those of us at the Bar who were doing Court Martials understood.  I don’t want to get into any kind of unseemly row but as I understand it – well what happened to me when I went out and did Court Martials is you would stay in the Officer’s Mess, people needed to know what rank you were because everybody seems to have a rank and so we Barristers were Honorary Lieutenant Colonels.  

DM: Was that to get the subsidised drink then in the officer’s mess, that was the whole point?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think it is something to do with where you may stay within – I don’t really understand it but where you stay within the officer’s mess and various rules like that.  Who knows?  But I have to say that all the experiences that I’ve had, I’ve had family who have been in the military and who currently serve in the military and Dermot, let me say this is the most fantastic honour doing this job. The experience that I’ve had leads me to believe that actually of all the jobs that could have been offered, this must be the best one.  I am in awe of the idea of shadowing a department where there are people who are prepared to put their lives on the line for the sake of the safety of this country.

DM: And how are you getting on with Maria Eagle who you replace?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Oh Maria and I have been friends for a long time.

DM: She didn’t want to go though did she?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I don't know, I don't know but I think she is perfectly happy in this new job, I think saving the BBC is a pretty important job to be doing.

DM: Okay, Honorary Lieutenant Colonel, Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, thank you very much.

EMILY THORNBERRY: You may salute, Dermot!

DM: Maybe not.