ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Should army veterans be given special support if they end up in prison?  The Justice Secretary Chris Grayling told me earlier that new guidance will be issued to prisons and specialist help will be offered to former servicemen and women who do end up behind bars.  Well I am joined now by the Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, a very good morning to you Mr Khan.  Do you go along with what Mr Grayling has been saying, that some kind of special understanding and therefore special help should be given to service personnel who unfortunately end up behind bars?  

SADIQ KHAN: I welcome the announcement made today by the government and I’ve only sorry it has taken so long.  In 2009 experts thought there could be as many as 12,000 veterans who were being supervised by probation and roughly speaking 8,000 in prisons so we began a piece of work to see, just like we help those with drug problems, just like we help those with mental health problems, can we help those who have served their country …

DM: Of course there may be a big intersect between some of those categories you describe.  

SADIQ KHAN: Absolutely right and that is why this piece of work is so important, preventing somebody getting involved in criminality, making sure they have got a job, retrained, homes, all that sort of stuff. Unfortunately that piece of work came to an end in 2010 so we’re pleased they have started it again.  

DM: Basically they are saying the whole of the prison population needs special help and people say of course, yes, they do and we want to see rehabilitation of offenders but are we going to see a situation where because of the shortage of resources where service personnel are singled out and given more help?

SADIQ KHAN: It’s about targeting resources for people who have served their country.  The Armed Covenant is very important, we need to make sure people come back after serving their country, they are given help with housing, they are given help in relation to getting a job, they are giving help in relation to addressing some of the problems serving their country has caused, whether that is post-traumatic stress disorder …

DM: But just on that practical level, so say there is a remedial class to help you with literacy skills, we know that that can be a big problem, there are a dozen people who can attend it, do you just pick the service personnel in the prison to attend that course?  

SADIQ KHAN: You micro-target resources, absolutely.  What you do is try and help those who need the most help and it is quite easy to do if you are doing the work at that stage …

DM: But they might not need the most help, they might just be service personnel.  

SADIQ KHAN: Dermot, either we believe in the Armed Covenant, we either believe in keeping the promises we make to the Armed Services or we don’t.  Part of that includes, by the way, saying to employers that if a veteran applies for a job you should think about giving them an interview.  That also means making it a criminal offence, a specific offence for somebody who assaults somebody who is wearing a uniform.  We have got to do much more to look after those who have served their country but the problem is this though, this comes at a time when we have got a prison crisis created by this government and Chris Grayling is more interested in banning books being sent to prisoners rather than making sure our prisons rehabilitate those who go to prison.  We have got an overcrowding crisis, prison staff down by 40%, 18 prisons have closed, more assaults on staff than ever before, more suicides in prison than ever before so your question is right, how can we try and help a certain group of prisoners when we are doing so badly with all the rest.

DM: But just how far down this road do you go with it because I put it to him a couple of cases, and there are plenty more, of awful murders carried out for whatever reasons by ex-service personnel, murdering their partners, one in front of his four year old child.  Do they deserve special treatment in prison?

SADIQ KHAN: There are some offences where there won’t be the preventative help that others get so some offences you have got to make sure the criminal justice system applies properly.  For some low level offences, for some prevent work you’ve got to try and help those who are veterans.  We can’t pretend that every single …

DM: So you are nuancing this, so some veterans don’t get help because of the nature of their crimes? Which crimes are they then?

SADIQ KHAN: Well all prisoners should be rehabilitated, they should be punished as well.  Some veterans will do acts of criminality which have nothing to do with them being a veteran and we have got to make sure the full force of the law applies to those veterans but …

DM: So what crimes are to do with being a veteran?

SADIQ KHAN: Let me give you some examples.  There are some people unfortunately in our prisons who are sleeping rough, they are veterans, they could be helped much earlier on.  There are some probation officers who try and help veterans in relation to getting them back into work, retraining, could do with better help. Some suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder in relation to some of the problems they have had in serving the country.

DM: But some people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder may unfortunately do extreme acts of violence.

SADIQ KHAN: And a judge who considers in mitigation the experience of the defendant found guilty will look into that.  The point is, you can’t have a situation where someone who has committed a murder is given preferential treatment because they are a veteran, what we need to make sure is …

DM: So those veterans don’t get special treatment because Chris Grayling says they will?

SADIQ KHAN: The judge will look at as he does now, as he or she does now, in mitigation some of the issues that go into the pre-sentence report.  What you can’t have is a situation where someone has a get out of jail card because they are a veteran and we need to make sure we do …

DM: Okay, what about sexual assaults then?  There is an estimate that 25% of those serving crimes for sexual assaults are in some way connected to the services?

SADIQ KHAN: Dermot, what we can’t do is have a get out of jail card for veterans.  What it is about is helping the veterans before they get involved in criminality.  Once veterans need help with rehabilitation, helping them get the help of rehabilitation – in America you have veterans panels.  What they have done in America in some states has led to less veterans getting involved in criminality and more veterans being rehabilitated, that’s the sort of programme we want to see in this country.  

DM: So effectively let’s hope they don’t end up in prison in the first place.  

SADIQ KHAN: That’s the real, real issue.  

DM: The other issue about rehabilitation is when it applies to the general population, the case of Ched Evans, the footballer who served his time for a rape, he is now out of prison, is on probation and presumably wants to resume his former career, Hartlepool may or may not be offering him a job.  Do you think he should be allowed to play football again?  He’s served the crime, sorry, he’s served the time for doing the crime.

SADIQ KHAN: There are some professions where you are a role model to others, lots of young boys and girls have posters of successful footballers on their bedroom walls. You have got to remember that in this particular case Mr Evans still claims he is not guilty of the offence and he is appealing the offence which you just talked about him being found guilty and I think it is right and proper for football clubs to very seriously consider the responsibility they have to society in relation to taking on a convicted rapist who still denies his guilt in that job.  

DM: So do you think he is a special case?  We are talking about rehabilitation, he has served that time, do you think he is a special case because of the high profile nature of the job?

SADIQ KHAN: Look, if somebody had been found guilty of an offence, said that they had learnt their lesson, they were taking action to address their offending behaviour and they were going to take steps to try and play a positive role to the victims of rape and other things, you could understand that line of argument.  I’m afraid in this particular case here is a man who was found guilty after a trial, he still claims he is innocent, he wants to go back to being a high profile footballer and I think football clubs need to think very seriously about their responsibility that they have to wider society.

DM: As part of this interview I wanted to ask you about the future, the general election as we all know very well.  Did you feel, well it seems that the Labour advantage in the polls has been eroded over the last year or so but you’ve got some really difficult situations to face from the Green Party, from UKIP and from the SNP, that ultimately the prize could be dashed from Labour by those other insurgent parties.

SADIQ KHAN: Look, we’ve had a good year.  We led the campaign to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom and I’m really pleased that Scotland is still very much part of the United Kingdom.  The reality is that in 2010 we had the second worst result since universal suffrage, only 29% of the British public voted Labour.  What Ed Miliband has managed to do is to keep the Labour party together and we are competitive, four and a half months before a general election.  Normally as you know, Dermot, we lose elections for about 18 years, four and a half months before a general election according to all the polls today – and we don’t usually like talking about polls …

DM: Well not now you are ahead.

SADIQ KHAN:  The most important poll is May 7th but all the polls today show us ahead, some as much as seven points. The important thing is this, the next general election will be very, very close and the fact that we are competitive is a tribute to our leadership and the party.

DM: And what about you?  Have we got it clear, are you going to attempt to stand for Labour as Mayor of London?

SADIQ KHAN: Nice try, Dermot.  My view is that Londoners are best served by a Labour government, my next four and a half months are going to be spent making sure we get a Labour government.  Any person who wants to be the Mayor of the best city in the world who is distracted before 10pm on May 7th with candidature I think is doing a disservice to Londoners because Londoners need a Labour government.

DM: And a last personal question, have you learnt your lesson about looking at your mobile phone when you are stuck in traffic?

SADIQ KHAN: As you know, Dermot, an allegation was made by a Conservative MP that I was looking at my phone, he decided to write to the Metropolitan Police who spent a huge amount of time looking into his allegation and your viewers will be pleased to know that they said this is nonsense and what he should be doing is serving his constituents rather than writing to the Met Police.

DM: But don’t do it, the message goes out.

SADIQ KHAN: Anybody who is driving, don’t look at your mobile phone and don’t be distracted, of course.

DM: Okay, Mr Khan, very good to see you, thank you very much indeed.  Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, there.