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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now David Cameron says he wants to make Britain a place where a good life is in reach for everyone who is willing to work but that seems to be a long way off according to a report from the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission.  The report claims that middle class children benefit from a glass floor that protects them from slipping down the social ladder.  Well the former Labour Cabinet Minister, Alan Milburn, is Chair of the Commission and he joins me now from Stocksfield in Northumberland and a very good morning to you Mr Milburn.  Just tell us then, we have heard a lot of course about glass ceilings in various ways, shapes and forms, how does a glass floor work?

ALAN MILBURN: Well good morning.  We have known for a long time there is a glass ceiling at the top of British society which really prevents children from more modest backgrounds rising into a top profession and getting a top job, this new evidence suggests there’s a glass floor which means that children from better off backgrounds who are less academically able somehow don’t fall down the social ladder and that clearly creates a problem so we know for example that children from better off backgrounds who are less academically able will earn on average about a third more than children who come from poorer backgrounds but who are more academically able.  I think what that suggests is that we have got a really big problem in British society if the less able can progress more in life than the more able, we are quite a long way from having a genuinely open, mobile, meritocratic society.

DM: So is there, this is not an easy one but is there any policy remedy in terms of redistribution of opportunity?  

ALAN MILBURN: Well I don't think you can fire a single silver bullet, this is a very complex issue and people know that governments of various persuasions have been wrestling with this frankly for decades.  I think most people in the country do want a situation where, if you like, children can go as far as their abilities and potential take them rather than their outcomes in life being determined by their social background or the family that they are born into so I think it should be a core objective for David Cameron’s government to make sure that there is a genuine level playing field of opportunity, equal opportunity for every child to realise their aspirations in life.  That starts with education, that’s the most important thing and we know for example that less well-off children tend to get a poorer education so one thing that government could do that would make a big difference is to make sure that you get more of the best teachers into the most challenging schools and frankly that probably means paying them more.  

DM: But does it also mean addressing the public schools, their charitable status and things like that?  And also on a related matter, the issue of internships, it’s quite often about who you know.

ALAN MILBURN: Yes, I think it is.  Look, every parent wants to do the best for their kids and no one should criticise any parent for doing that, that’s what we all want.  I think we all know that there is, however, an uneven, unequal distribution of opportunities in society so this is where the government has such a key role to play because above all else it can rebalance that equation and as I say, there is effort going on but we just want to see more of that intensified so that children who are able, who have done better at age five than their peers from better off backgrounds, really get an opportunity to translate that potential into better outcomes in later life.  It’s not just schools, it’s also employers.  We know that internships if you like have become the new rung on the professional career ladder.  If you get an internship you’re on your way up but the problem is that all too often these internships tend to go on the basis not of what you know but who you know and I think that’s wrong, it’s got to change and that’s a job for employers and, if necessary, the government should step in.  

DM: Do you have any thoughts, there are those who’d say how can we ever be a truly meritocratic society when there is one family, the national family, the symbolic family, of course the Royal family, it’s all about birth and nothing about meritocracy.

ALAN MILBURN: Well I think people will have their different views on that but I do think generally, certainly when I was brought up as a child I was brought up to believe that if you put in effort you get a reward and I think that’s what the values that most people in the country have.  I think that they are perfectly accepting of people doing well in life but hey just want to make sure that people have done well in life off their own backs rather than through the happenstance, if you like, of the family that you’re born into so I think we have got to do a lot more really to level this playing field and the truth is that some countries do better than we do and our history as a country proves that we can do better than we’re currently doing.  Look I was born in 1958, the academics – and I think I got lucky in my life because the academics say that I come from the most socially mobile generation there has ever been where I think there were more opportunities for women and men to get on in life regardless of the background that you came from.  So we’ve done it before, we can do it again but what it really does need is a determined national effort on the part of universities, employers, schools and in the end only the government can lead it, which is determined to break through both the glass ceiling and the glass floor so that where you get to in life depends on what you do not where you’ve come from.  

DM: I know all the Labour leadership candidates will be nodding along with what you’re saying, Mr Milburn, let me turn to that issue now as a former Labour cabinet minister serving with distinction with Mr Blair and others, of course a Labour party member, what do you think it says about the Labour party’s appetite for power now that Jeremy Corbyn is doing so well?

ALAN MILBURN: Well look, Jeremy is a perfectly nice chap but I don't think even Jeremy thinks that he is Prime Ministerial material and that’s what we need, the Labour party needs to get serious.  Look, if you want to face a decade or more in the political wilderness then continue along the track that some Labour party members seem to be taking the party which is into political oblivion.  We’ve got to get serious, we know how Labour gets back onto the political pitch.  You get back on to the political pitch not by appealing to one part of the electorate but by making sure that you build a coalition of support in the country, north and south, Scotland, England and Wales, middle class and working class families, based on trying to help more people regardless of background realise their aspirations in life.  That’s how we have won before, that’s how we can win again and it’s time maybe to remember some of those lessons from history rather than forgetting them.

DM: But what do you make of these reports that there are thousands of people joining the Labour party, availing themselves of this easy method now of getting a vote in this election of paying just £3 to become affiliated to the party, for that very end, to elect Jeremy Corbyn?

ALAN MILBURN: Well look, if that is true that is obviously a serious situation.  However I think the most important thing is that anybody who has got an interest in Labour being returned to government needs to look into their souls, look to their party’s history and remember the ways in which you win elections.  You can’t win by lurching to the left, by taking the Labour party to the extremes of British politics, the only way that you win a general election is if Labour stamps itself firmly on the centre ground in the mainstream of British politics which is where the vast majority of voters always are and I think that’s the opportunity that this election of leader affords to the Labour party, to re-establish our credentials as a sensible, centrist party that has the interest not of one part of the country or one section of society at heart but the whole of our country and the whole of our society.

DM: But just in terms of how that happens, we hear from all the camps, the leadership camps, that they are not prepared to stand down so do you think that either one of the lesser contenders should stand down to increase the so-called centrist vote or that Jeremy Corbyn should see sense and withdraw?  

ALAN MILBURN: No, look I think it is an open democracy.  I rather like the fact that people with a variety of points of views can express them, that’s after all what a democratic contest should be all about, it should be hearing a variety of points of view. You don’t have to agree with them, I violently disagree with Jeremy’s point of view but he has an absolute right to put it as does Liz, as does Andy and as does Yvette and all power to their elbow.  Keep making the arguments, that’s the most important thing, what I want to hear from all the candidates is not some tactical argument about how you get Labour back into power but what they think the core purpose of a modern Labour party should be because I fervently believe that the reason that Labour could win under Tony Blair, just as the reason that the Conservatives could win enormous majorities under Mrs Thatcher is that they were leaders who stood up for what they believed in.  You mightn’t have agreed with them and very often people disagreed with both Margaret Thatcher and with Tony Blair but what nobody could say is that these weren’t leaders who were big people with a big purpose trying to change society for the better.

DM: And what do you think about the suggestion from some quarters that the process should be suspended while this issue of the new members is sorted out, while they are investigated properly?

ALAN MILBURN: Well I think people are making that suggestion, frankly I don't know the ins and the outs or the details of that.  I am sure that someone in the Labour party organisation will be looking at that suggestion today but I am assuming that the contest will continue and it’s important that all of the candidates set out their arguments in the way that I am sure they are trying to do and the most important thing is that those voting in this contest remember one very simple thing – it’s the easiest thing in politics to be as pure as you like and to cast yourself into the political wilderness.  I’ve always rather believed that the purpose of being in politics is to try to win elections so that you can change society for the better.  We know that the Labour party can’t win by being on the extremes, it’s got to be in the centre of British politics so whoever becomes the leader of the Labour party needs to sit comfortably on that centre ground.  

DM: Lovely talking to you Mr Milburn, thank you very much for your time. Alan Milburn there, the Chair of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission.