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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has described the government’s response to the crisis in Syria as woefully inadequate and at the SNP’s conference in Aberdeen this weekend the party promised to oppose military action in the country.  Well I am joined now by Alex Salmond, the former Scottish First Minister and the SNP spokesperson on foreign affairs, he’s in Aberdeenshire, a very good morning to you Mr Salmond.  Let me ask you about that phrase used by Nicola Sturgeon about the government’s response to the Syrian crisis being woefully inadequate she says, the Bishops in that letter we are seeing this morning are saying increasingly inadequate.  It seems almost like you have coordinated your response.  

ALEX SALMOND: Yes, the SNP are acting in a pincer movement with the Church of England on Downing Street at the moment.  Whether we have coordinated it or not, I think both Nicola Sturgeon and the Church of England Bishops are speaking for many, many people across the country who believe that the United Kingdom can’t turn its back on people who have arrived in Europe, not just helping people in the camps but turning its back – for example if the boy Aylan Kurdi who was washed up dead on a Turkish beach, if by some miracle that child had survived, then the current position of the United Kingdom government would have been to refuse him asylum in the United Kingdom and that cannot be right.  There must be a solidarity of some aspects of what the UK says to our European partners in terms of this shared crisis which is enveloping Europe.

DM: So is the SNP with the Bishops as well on the number they suggest, 50,000 rather than 20?   

ALEX SALMOND: No, what we said in our Commons motion if you remember several weeks ago, which we put to a vote in the House of Commons and gathered support from many parties, I think six political parties in the House of Commons voted for the SNP motion, what we described as a proportionate response, take our share of the European response to this to show our European allies that we are not just going to leave this to the Southern European countries who are closest in proximity but that this is something that we recognise that Europe as a whole must act together on and that’s how we described it and that’s what we want the government to do.

DM: Did it have numbers in it?  I’m sorry, I don’t keep that motion by my side, I know it was a few weeks ago and I do look at them regularly of course, Mr Salmond, was there a number suggested?    

ALEX SALMOND: No, there wasn’t, the word was proportionate and the reason is the number is greater than nothing and it’s proportionate, that’s the key.  What the UK has offered to do right now Dermot, both in terms of numbers but also in terms of direction, is inadequate, it’s obviously inadequate in terms of numbers but it’s also this idea that you can ignore the refugees who have arrived in Europe, that’s not tenable. It’s not tenable because the countries that are closest in proximity can’t bear that pressure alone, you have to act in terms of solidarity.  Now that’s a key point of humanitarian concern and it is also a point of European solidarity and I’ll tell you this, it’s a point that chimes with the vast majority of decent people both in Scotland and in England.  

DM: So what kind of numbers would an independent Scotland, of course if the referendum had gone the other way you’d be heading for independence by March next year, what kind of numbers would an independent Scotland be trying to take as part of its fair share?

ALEX SALMOND: We’d be taking a proportionate share of the European response to the crisis and that proportion can be worked out in terms of the size of your economy, it can be worked out in terms of the size of your population, it can be worked out in terms of what’s also being done in the camps in the Middle East, it shows your European allies that you are taking this in terms of solidarity and of course it would help perhaps on many other issues to convince the rest of Europe that the United Kingdom is prepared to act in concert, to deal with a crisis which is European wide.  You can’t just shut your eyes and pretend it’s not happening, clearly it is happening and what the people of this country have shown in terms of their response, what the Church of England Bishops are showing in their attitude is that many, many people in this country want to see this country step forward in the traditional way it has to help people in extremity.

DM: And Mr Salmond, have you looked at what more Scotland could do within the United Kingdom?  Is there anything?  

ALEX SALMOND: Well as you also know I’m sure, the Scottish government took the first initiative to contact the UK government to say we will certainly coordinate our share of what you decide in terms of the UK and that offer was made and incidentally the coordination in Scotland has been extremely good but obviously we cannot admit people into the country because immigration and asylum are responsibilities decided by the United Kingdom government.

DM: And you know your leader said on this programme a few weeks back that if it comes to that she’d be prepared to house some Syrian refugees, presumably you’d back her on that, that you’d take some?

ALEX SALMOND: Yes but if I may say – and that was the right response for Nicola to give and I’d give the same response – but the issue is about what we do as a country and as a community and it really isn’t Dermot, an issue – because we are seeing people both dying in their attempts to get to Europe and also we are approaching a European winter, we really have to act in terms of the body politic in this and we really have to rise above trying to pin people on numbers as opposed to getting the concept right and then taking our fair share of the burden.

DM: I think everyone agrees on the analysis, don’t they, to a certain extent anyway that the real solution to all this is trying to sort out the awful situation within Syria.  Now we know that the government believes that part of that solution may involve British action in terms of air strikes in Syria, you beg to differ.  Do you think the government could be defeated on that if it came to a vote?

ALEX SALMOND:  Yes, I do because there is no credible argument that the government is putting forward.  No one, absolutely no one believes that diverting a few ageing Tornados from the strikes in Iraq to Syria is going to make any material difference to the military situation in Syria at the present moment.  It might add to human suffering because obviously mistakes will be made, as they always are, in bombing campaigns but militarily it will make no significant difference whatsoever.  Now, what should be done and given that UKs current role as a non-combatant in Syria and as a permanent member of the United Nations, it’s the exact position you have to take a serious diplomatic initiative to try and get the consensus required to bring the civil war to a conclusion and noticeably, the Chinese President is arriving on a state visit to the United Kingdom this week.  They are the other permanent member of the Security Council who are a non-combatant in Syria because all the rest are already involved militarily in Syria and therefore that should be some aspect of the Prime Minister’s discussion with the Chinese President, should be to try and take that diplomatic initiative through the United Nations which might actually bring about and broker a settlement in the civil war and get to the roots of the humanitarian crisis which is enveloping not just the Middle East but Europe as well.  

DM: I’m glad you touched on that Mr Salmond because I’ve got the Chinese Ambassador to the UK coming in a little bit later on and overall your view on that Chinese state visit, there are many, many people saying we are getting a bit too cosy with the Chinese in terms of the billions that they are going to invest in the economy and particularly in sensitive areas.  


ALEX SALMOND: Well I don’t share that view, I’ve been to China I think five times as First Minister of Scotland, building an excellent relationship between Scotland and China.  I don’t obviously approve of the nuclear investment but that’s not because it’s Chinese investment, that’s because I think nuclear power is the most expensive generation system of election of all so that’s a different matter but I certainly approve of Chinese investment, I certainly approve of dialogue and I certainly approve of a closer relationship between the people of Scotland, the people of the United Kingdom and the People’s Republic of China.

DM: No qualms about their human rights record?  According to Amnesty International they execute more people than the rest of the world put together.  

ALEX SALMOND: Well can I just say that each time I went on a visit to China I met with the Amnesty International and the other organisations beforehand and each time I made representations as appropriate when I was in China and I didn’t draw back from doing that.  We also made other, I thought, quite important initiatives I felt, for example on  climate justice where China has an increasingly impressive record, to try and look at the positive aspects as well as making representations.  Nobody should be frightened or fearful of making representations on human rights but the idea that you can make any progress without dialogue, without economic cooperation, I think is a nonsense.  You have to have dialogue, you have to have these relationships and you have to do things in a proper, respectful but principled manner.

DM: So do you think the government was wrong when it comes to Saudi Arabia and their notable abuses of human rights, it was wrong of the government then to cancel that prisons contract which was connected to the plight of a Briton there who is facing being lashed?  

ALEX SALMOND: Well I approve of Michael Gove – and I can’t actually imagine I have said those words incidentally, I approve of Michael Gove’s stand in the Cabinet as reported on that issue.  You can’t ignore what’s happening to United Kingdom citizens and you can’t ignore what’s happening to someone whose only crime seems to have been to criticise the present Saudi Arabian government.  You make proper representations and of course a prisons contract touches at the very heart of judicial policy so I think Mr Gove was right to reflect that attitude to the Cabinet and to take a small principled stand, one of the very few that this Cabinet has been prepared to take.

DM: And one last quick thought Mr Salmond, seeing as we’re discussing global affairs, on the American Presidential race and a man I know you have had many dealings with, some of them friendly, some of them not so – Donald Trump, do you think he’s a welcome addition to that race?

ALEX SALMOND: Well I’m watching the American Presidential elections closely and I don’t make the mistake of intervening in American politics in the way that Donald Trump likes to intervene in Scottish politics but I’m not so sure that Mr Trump hasn’t already peaked in that contest and who knows, his best days as a candidate might already be behind him.    

DM: Okay, Alex Salmond, great to see you again, thank you very much indeed in picture perfect Aberdeenshire.