ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now long term economic plan, those must be the most repeated and most mocked words of this parliament.  It is George Osborne’s economic mantra of course and he says it has been key to Britain’s economic recovery but Labour say his long term economic plan has left millions of families behind and that further cuts could take us back to the levels of spending of the 1930s.  I’m joined now from Leigh in Lancashire by the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, a very good morning to you Mr Burnham.  So some there of Labour’s economic analysis but the other side of the coin is that you must admit that things are getting better on many fronts as well.

ANDY BURNHAM: Not here they’re not, Dermot.  People that I speak to across the Leigh area are really struggling, it’s not just that their wages haven’t gone up, they don’t have any basic security in their employment.  Too many people on zero hours contracts, too many people just can’t get enough hours to bring in enough money and that’s the reality for most people so I think when they hear politicians like George Osborne pontificating and saying it’s all wonderful, all these jobs, that is not the reality for people in places like this and that is what causes the disconnect between Westminster and the rest of the country.  

DM: I don't know, you must know, is the unemployment rate above the national average in your constituency?

ANDY BURNHAM: They talk about jobs without saying what kind of jobs are these and what we’ve seen from this government is a big growth for instance in zero hours contracts.  Now that has become very common across my constituency and from my point of view, from a health point of view, how can people have good mental health and wellbeing if they have no basic security in terms of the hours they are going to work from one week to the next so it’s not just about the number of jobs, it’s also about the kind of jobs those are and whether they bring security to people and to families and to be honest, we’ve seen an epidemic of insecurity under this government.  They really have failed to see how life is hard for people in areas like this, they aren’t doing enough to help people and that’s why so many people want to see the back of this government .  

DM: The original question was, isn’t there a glimpse of things getting better, low interest rates for nearly the entire parliament, petrol prices falling, that’s more money in people’s pockets.  Okay, growth going up, employment is up as well, the list continues of things that yes, we hear what you say but the list of things that show perhaps things might get better pretty soon, it’s quite a long one isn’t it?

ANDY BURNHAM: Of course we welcome those things, of course we do but there was a growing economy when this government came to power and you’ll remember they came in and then made drastic changes and cuts to spending and the recovery was thrown off course so I would put it back to you, Dermot, that to be honest they are only getting back to where things were and this recession has been longer, harder and deeper than it needed to have been and the casualties have been working families in areas like this. I can’t put it to you any more plainly than this, they just do not recognise the picture that you’ve just given, they don’t have that extra money in their pockets and also those who haven’t been able to find work have been punished by this government.  Over use of sanctions for those seeking work in terms of people on Job Seekers Allowance or the terrible cruelty of the Bedroom Tax.  These are people who are in a very difficult situation, they have no choice about their circumstances and yet they have been punished by this government at the same time as they have given a tax cut to millionaires.  These are the wrong priorities, Dermot, ordinary working people have been hit quite hard by this government and I think many of them are crying out for a change.  

DM: There is a lot around, as ever, about your beat, the NHS of course.  This first of all from the Health Select Committee about end of life care and people if they want to die at home or in a hospice, that really should be made possible.  

ANDY BURNHAM: Oh yes, I agree very strongly with this.  I had personal family experience of a situation where a family member died in hospital when she wanted to be at home and I think this goes to the heart of what people really want from the health service, fundamental choice when it really matters such as at the end of life.  So I’ve been arguing for some time that we need to give people the right to end of life care in their own home or in a hospice and I have also committed the Labour party to free social care at the end of life. Now that makes sense, people will say how can that be paid for but it’s because it doesn’t make sense to have people going in and out of hospital, receiving all these unnecessary treatments at the end of their life.  It is often much more financially sensible to care for people where they want to be and that’s why I really welcome this report from the Health Select Committee.  Maybe even though we’re in frenzied political times, maybe the other political parties could commit to the same thing too because amidst the frenzy of an election campaign, some things matter more to people than the toing and froing of party politics.  I’ve put our cards on the table but I do so in a spirit of constructive engagement and I hope the other political parties will match our commitment in this really important area.

DM: Well this next question flows on from it about constructive engagement because you and I have talked for many years now about your plans for integrating social care with other forms of care within the NHS yet the government comes up with these plans for Manchester to devolve £6 million worth or so of spending to do just that and you seem to be opposing it.  

ANDY BURNHAM: Well it’s a bit late in the day isn’t it?  They have spent five years fragmenting and privatising the health service and I think people are right to be more than a little suspicious of why George Osborne arrives just a few weeks before the dissolution of parliament with a so-called plan to integrate.  To be honest with you, I think it needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt.  We already have in place the Bill that he and his colleagues put forward earlier in this parliament with no mandate from the British people, the Health and Social Care Act, because what that is doing is actively fragmenting the NHS, they are forcing NHS contracts out onto the open market and that means that lots more providers are coming in  making integration harder to achieve.  My message to George Osborne is this, quite simple, you can’t continue to ride both horses, what’s it going to be, integration or competition?  

DM: Okay, a question the Labour leadership needs to answer is about a post-election deal with the SNP.  It’s damaging your party in Scotland, that’s what a lot of Labour people from there say, why don’t you just rule it out?  Would you and Mr Miliband say we will categorically not do any kind of deal with the Scottish National Party after the general election?

ANDY BURNHAM: Maybe this is an old fashioned view, Dermot, but I just think it’s arrogant for any political party right now to start second guessing the public and thinking what they are going to decide before they have even voted.  I am a football manager, you may have picked up over the years Dermot, and I am in the middle of a match right now and I am playing to win and in those circumstances I don’t saying, oh what do we do if we draw?  We’re out there playing to win and the public I think wants to see people like me putting my plans on the table.  I am campaigning here for a Labour majority government and I believe that is within our grasp and the message that should go out from all Labour spokespeople now is to say we go out there and we fight to win because the people of places like Leigh need a Labour government and they need one pretty urgently because of all the reasons I gave you earlier.  

DM: Okay, right, I’ll stay with your football analogy then.  Ed Miliband is your coach in this football match, it’s the World Cup, you don’t manage to win, it goes to a draw, extra time, still a draw, you go to penalties – you haven’t planned for that at all so you lose and you get it in the next.  

ANDY BURNHAM: Well we’re not there yet are we?  We’re in the middle of the game and …

DM: All I’m saying is that you plan for the eventualities, teams that don’t practice their penalties get it in the neck.  

ANDY BURNHAM: Teams don’t start talking about drawing, do they, when they are fighting to win and important contest.  We are participants in this event that’s happening, it’s not a game is it, it’s incredibly serious.   We’re participants and people want to see us fighting for victory and that’s what I am doing.  I don’t think it’s right for us to be saying of the polls say the public might say this in a few weeks’ time and therefore we need to start deal making as though it has already happened but I’m not presumptuous that a single vote has been cast in favour of Labour, I’m fighting for every vote right now and do you know, I just want to say this as well Dermot,  in recent elections people can remember seeing the polls running up to them and they often don’t get the result right at all do they?  People will remember 1992 famously but even last time I don't think the polls called it right so I think we should just put those to one side for now.  The public wants to hear from us what we would do to change the country and to be honest I’m not going to be drawn into any more of that speculation and hype about all of that, I’m going to set out Labour’s case for the National Health Service, building a National Health and Care Service by bringing in social care.  Free social care at the end of life as has been called for today, I’m committed to that; getting rid of those 15 minute visits in people’s homes that really are worthless; ending the zero hours contracts in our social care system; these are the kind of things that Labour is talking about and these at the end of the day are the things that matter to the people going to vote, much more than any potential deals later down the line.  

DM: You are right, people want to know a little bit about the background of the people they are voting for, how many kitchens have you got in your main home?  

ANDY BURNHAM:  I mean again, if this election is descending to that level already, I can hear TV sets being switched off Dermot all over the land as you ask that question and do you know, we’ve really got to do better than this haven’t we, as we go into this election?  Come on, let’s talk about the things that people are worried about, let’s talk about the issues affecting the National Health Service.  We had a statistic on Friday that this year the government will miss the A&E targets so in the last year of this five year parliament the NHS will miss the national A&E target, massive news and a sure sign of an NHS that has gone downhill on Mr Cameron’s watch.  Now those are the things that people are worrying about and talking about today, not about kitchens and all the rest of the nonsense in the newspapers.  

DM: All right, Mr Burnham, thank you very much indeed.  The Shadow Health Secretary there.  

ANDY BURNHAM: Thank you very much.