ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:  Now there reports this morning of deepening divisions within the Conservative party about Europe.  The Sunday Times has a warning that David Cameron could face a leadership challenge if the so-called blue on blue attacks do not stop.  This is after what’s being seen as a thinly veiled attack on the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, in the House of Commons last week.  Well I’m joined now by the Business Minister, Anna Soubry, she’s in Nottingham and a very good morning to you, Anna Soubry.  Are you saying oh dear, it’s all turning a bit nasty now?  

ANNA SOUBRY: No, I’m saying oh dear, this is so boring for ordinary viewers who are not interested in this media bubble, mainly centred in Westminster.  Out here in the real world people want to know the issues, they want to know why we are going to be safer, stronger and better off in Europe and equally they want to know what it looks like if they were to vote and it is about the individual votes that will be cast on June 24th, what it will look like if we were to leave the EU.  That’s what people want to know about, not this media bubble, it’s dreadful Dermot.  

DM: Ah, the media bubble argument.  Don’t you think they want to know though who is going to be Justice Secretary, that Michael Gove might be sacked for campaigning on the other side.  

ANNA SOUBRY: No, of course they don’t …

DM: Well they do want to know because we had a general election under a year ago.  

ANNA SOUBRY: Right, let’s get a few things straight, right.  The media got the result of the general election spectacularly wrong.  The reason they got it wrong was because they sat in comfortable studios and they listened to media commentators and that was, forgive me, that’s lazy journalism.  Get out into the real world, listen to what real people are saying.  That’s where I was on Friday for example, I was out in my constituency with a group of Lib Dems, Greens, Labour, all of us on the doorstep talking to real people about why we believe we should stay in the EU.  They weren’t remotely interested in the machinations as perceived by the media about the Conservative party.  This is not about the Conservative party …

DM: Listen, we just have to clear this up ….

ANNA SOUBRY: … it is about the future of our country and it is really important, that we have that debate.

DM:  Minister, I just want to clear this up, you are saying it’s a media invention, a media invention, that the media are making it up …

ANNA SOUBRY: No, I’m saying it’s boring, Dermot.  This is boring.

DM: … that there are considerations that Ministers who campaign on the leave side may well be reshuffled after the referendum. That is something people do want to know, what the make-up of the government will be.

ANNA SOUBRY: No, they don’t, they don’t.  

DM: So they don’t care, do they, who’s in charge?

ANNA SOUBRY:  No, they absolutely want to know what the arguments are for staying in and what the arguments are for staying out.  That’s what people want to know and it is easy for journalists to sit and have all these machinations, have talk about all these personalities.  Actually out there in the real world that is what turns people off politics, they don’t like personality led politics.  They want to know the arguments so please, ask me the question, challenge me, have me up with a good strong debate with somebody who doesn’t believe in it and all the rest of it.  Don’t let’s just get boring about personalities, that’s not what it’s about.  That’s not what I’ve come on to talk about, Dermot.

DM: Well listen.  You mentioned and I’ve mentioned, the general election. The core plank of the general election, we have to revisit that with you having just said the people don’t care who’s in charge, what was one of the main planks of the Conservative campaign was …

ANNA SOUBRY: No, I didn’t say that.  

DM: … that our leader David Cameron is better than the Labour leader, that was all about personality wasn’t it?

ANNA SOUBRY: No, it wasn’t actually, it was about the policies and the politics of those people.  Yes, there are issues and times of course when people will look at whether somebody has the qualities of a Prime Minister in terms of for example of leadership and obviously that debate will come in 2020 but here now in the real world people want to know why I believe so passionately that we are better off, stronger and safer remaining in the EU and that’s the debate I want to have.  That’s what people tell me and I think that is the way we should now look at all of this otherwise people are just going to be turned off in their droves.  They don’t know the issues and that’s because …

DM: Well let’s discuss them.  

ANNA SOUBRY: Absolutely brilliant, go on.

DM: Well let me put them to you because doesn’t this turn people off, the fact that your side is over-egging the doom mongering, the so-called Project Fear.  Today we’ve been told, we’re hearing from the Europe Minister that we face decades in economic limbo if we leave the European Union.  The Chancellor has been talking with the E20 and the Chinese come up with the whole world economy is threatened by the UK leaving the EU, you’re overdoing that aren’t you, the scaremongering?

ANNA SOUBRY: Well actually no, I don't think it is.  I think there is a really valid debate to be had about what does it look like if people were to vote in this referendum to leave the EU and when I looked into this and Article 50 and what that then means, the procedure that is then triggered off, it would take at least two years to get out of the EU and of course in that two years we would see chaos.  Last week when some people decided that they were going to be in favour of us leaving the EU, we saw that the value of the pound plummeted.  We also know Moody’s is a very important agency and they have said that our credit rating would go down if we were to leave the EU.  So that’s not the views of just politicians, these are the views of the market, these are the views of organisations who know what they are talking about.  

DM: Well we know how wrong the credit agencies got everything before the crash don’t we?

ANNY SOUBRY: Sorry, I couldn’t hear you.  

DM: There are economists who say that the pound falling is a good thing, we can export more.  Where is this economic limbo coming from?

ANNA SOUBRY: I think if you look at what actually would happen if we were to leave the EU, there would be at least two years where we would have to disentangle ourselves and what business says to me is that uncertainty is the thing that they dread the most, they need certainty to do business and unfortunately two years of uncertainty would really harm British business but in any event, I make a strong positive case for us remaining in the EU, it has huge benefits for people, not just my generation but of course my children and my grandchildren.  It has delivered growth and prosperity and jobs, 500 million people over the channel that we trade with, 40% up to 50% of our exports going into that single market, that’s where our future lies as well of course as all the other trade agreements that we reach with other countries where we want to do business.  But primarily, staying in the EU has provided us with growth and prosperity and will continue to do so especially as it is reforming itself. I actually believe that Cameron has caught this wind of change that is beginning to blow across the EU and I think we are going to drive that.

DM: Right, I just want to squeeze in a last question that even you can’t accuse the media of making up and this is from the Cabinet Secretary Sir Jeremy Heywood, banning ministers from access to civil servants and their research if they want to make their arguments to leave.  That’s hardly fair is it?  

ANNA SOUBRY: Do you know, I’m really sorry to upset you about this but actually I genuinely don’t know anything about that because it’s something that’s not come my way at all.  I am sure that Sir Jeremy, who after all is completely independent …

DM: Are you sure you’re in government?  Everyone’s heard about it.  

ANNA SOUBRY: … and a leading member … Hang on, hang on a moment, you don’t have to be cheeky!  I haven’t heard about it but you see, that just proves my point.  Everybody in the real world genuinely hasn’t heard about it, it is the media bubble.  But look, if this is an important issue – and I’m not saying that it isn’t – then of course Sir Jeremy will make sure that the right thing is done and that’s what I would say about it but it is just something that has not come my way, I promise you.  That’s all I would have to say because I trust Sir Jeremy Heywood, he is our leading civil servant, he is completely independent and he is extremely good.  He’ll do the right thing.

DM: Well okay, Anna Soubry, good to talk to you but of course no one cares who does the job so Business Minister for the time being, who knows who you’ll let have a go later on.  

ANNA SOUBRY: What?  

DM: That’s what you said.  Thank you very much indeed.