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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now Labour might never win back the voters it lost to the Conservatives it lost in the May general election, that’s just one of the warnings from a new report in today’s Observer newspaper which says that the party risks becoming irrelevant to even lifelong supporters.  With veteran left-winger Jeremy Corbyn emerging as an unexpected frontrunner perhaps in the leadership contest is Labour any closer to deciding where it goes from here?  Well Ben Bradshaw is running to become the party’s Deputy Leader and he is with me now, a very good morning to you Mr Bradshaw.  Well those two statements I made there in the introduction kind of go together, is Labour any more likely or less likely to regain some of those supporters that you lost in particular to the Conservatives if you elect Jeremy Corbyn as leader?

BEN BRADSHAW: Well I think there is a certain amount of hysteria about Jeremy’s candidacy at the moment, Dermot, if you don’t mind me saying so and I think it is really important that Labour party members think very carefully about what they’re about to do.  In my experience Labour party members are a lot more sensible than other people give them credit, don’t forget they voted overwhelmingly for David last time and I think it would be a mistake …

DM: For ….?

BEN BRADSHAW: For David Miliband last time, overwhelmingly, the members voted overwhelmingly for David last time and I think it would be a mistake for commentators and others to assume that those people, a minority of members of who attend meetings to nominate or who attend the hustings and make the most noise at the hustings, are necessarily representative of the wider membership.  I have more faith in the common sense of the wider membership if they want us to win the next election.

DM: So what do you make then … this is what happens, some are saying in the papers today if he wins or even does very well, that grandees, whoever they may be, should be encouraged to remove him.  Is there a potential split, a 1980s style spit in the offing?

BEN BRADSHAW: Well I don't think Jeremy is going to win so all of these questions are hypothetical.  The problem with the media narrative at the moment is it is preventing us having the real debate we need to have which was illustrated in that report you quoted in your introduction, the fact that four of the five voters we need to back to win in 2020 voted Conservative on May 7th and that report talked to people who went from Labour to Conservative at this election, who voted Labour in 2010 even and asked them the reasons for doing so and I would recommend any Labour party member who wants us to win the next election, to read that report very carefully before they vote.

DM: Well let’s talk about your part in trying to win those people back.  I know of all the candidates for Leader and Deputy Leader you’re not accepting labels, in particular labels like Blairite but essentially that’s how we could understand where you come from, your Labour party DNA is from that strand.

BEN BRADSHAW: Well commentators love putting labels on us in politics don’t they?  Blairite, Brownite, left, right, I’ve never accepted any of those labels.  What I have done in a former safe Conservative seat in the south of England is I have turned it into a pretty safe Labour one and that’s why I am running for Deputy Leader because if you look across the country at the kind of seats we are going to have to win in places like Southampton, Plymouth, Swindon, Ipswich, in those middle England seats that we won under Tony Blair even in 2005, I think I can help us do that because I have got a message which I think appeals beyond our core vote and heavens, that’s what we’re going to have to do.

DM: So that’s the thing, let me ask you some specific questions on where you stand on the issues people want to know about.  I follow you on Twitter, I’ve been reading your Twitter feed, you don’t give much away there, there’s a lot of selfies and thanks for support and things like that so where do you stand on the big issues facing your party at the moment?  There is a vote coming up tomorrow on the welfare changes, on the welfare cuts, which bits do you personally support or not support or do you say, as Harriet Harman originally did, we will support the entire package?

BEN BRADSHAW: Well we are not supporting the entire package, we are abstaining on the entire package which is not the same as supporting it.

DM: Well that’s long-grassing it isn’t it?  You’re not taking a view.

BEN BRADSHAW: I think we have to be very careful about this and we have to avoid falling into the traps that George Osborne and the Tories are setting us and they set us in the last five years.  I don't think the British public will respect an opposition that simply opposes everything for opposition’s sake and going back to that report you quoted in your introduction, one of the reasons that people went from Labour to Conservative at this election is they didn’t trust Labour on social security reform so we have to be very careful.  Yes, oppose the government when they’re wrong as they are on tax credits and as they are on limiting tax credits to people …

DM: But this is exactly about that, it’s about what Ben Bradshaw the candidate thinks, what do you think about the specific issues?  We’ve had the budget, it’s laid out there in black and white, do you think for instance child tax credit should be limited to families with two children?  Beyond that you don’t get any money, you would oppose that?

BEN BRADSHAW: I would but I think Labour must not allow itself to be put in a position which is what those voters thought we were in when they voted Conservative instead of Labour, where they saw us as the welfare party and not the work party.  The secret is in the name, Labour, we have to be the party of work and what the budget did and these welfare reforms will do is they disincentivise work as independent Institute for Fiscal Studies pointed out.  So there are various bits we should oppose vigorously but we must not allow ourselves to be portrayed as the party which is against welfare reform.

DM: Foreign affairs, Ben Bradshaw’s views on Syria, we’re going to be discussing that in detail next but with Mr Cameron’s statements today and with what happened with Ed Miliband back in 2013 and the initial discussion as to whether the UK should get involved in any military action against Syria, where should Labour stand on this if the issue comes up again?

BEN BRADSHAW: Firstly, it is completely outrageous that David Cameron seems to have already taken action in Syria by stealth without consulting parliament and I expect there will be statement or if there is not a statement, we will demand an urgent question on that tomorrow in the House of Commons.  I was one of the very small number of Labour MPs two years ago who didn’t oppose military action at the time because I thought we should keep the option open but let’s be clear about what happened back then.  It was David Cameron who mismanaged that process, he rushed us all back in the middle of the summer without preparing the British public or political opinion or MPs for what he was about to do and the reason he lost the vote was that so many Conservatives opposed him.  Now I think we shouldn’t rule out anything, I think the situation in Syria is absolutely catastrophic, as the United Nations have said it is the biggest humanitarian disaster we have faced since the Second World War but if David Cameron wants to get a vote through parliament he has to do it much better and more professionally than he did last time.

DM: So you could see Labour supporting him if he gets that process right?

BEN BRADSHAW: We need to see from the Prime Minister what his strategy is and last time he totally failed to give us a strategy and answer to a number of very important questions which any decent opposition is going to ask of the government and the British public would expect us to do the same this time.

DM: I just want to ask you a last quick question about the Lib Dems and their new leader, Tim Farron, perhaps talk about coalitions in the future and things like that.  As an openly gay MP what do you think about Mr Farron’s pronouncements or lack of pronouncements on the issue he was asked openly about gay sex, whether he thought it was a sin or not and hasn’t really told us what he thinks?  What do you think about that, do you think he should be asked about those kinds of things?

BEN BRADSHAW: Well for a Liberal I thought his position seems incredibly illiberal.  Look, I don't think you should condemn someone or feel they are not fit for office just because they have religious faith.  I’m a practising Anglican, I happen to be a liberal kind of Anglican rather than the Conservative evangelical which it appears Tim Farron is and I have no problem at all with combining my religious faith with having tolerant and open and progressive values on things like same sex marriage and gender equality and all of those other things.  Those are issues he is going to have to settle with his own party because it would seem to me that he is pretty out of step with his own party, although they have just elected him leader, on some of these issues but it doesn’t mean to say he is not going to be able to do a good job and who knows, he might like some of the people who you are about to speak to change his mind on some of these issues and I always welcome people when they change their minds on things.  

DM: Ben Bradshaw, great to see you, thank you very much indeed.