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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, what would a future Labour government’s relationship be like with big business?  Ed Miliband gave a pretty robust defence last week in response to concerns from some business leaders about his policies.  He says the party is not anti-business but what about energy?  After the Labour leader announced a price freeze a year and a  half ago, the party’s relationship with the energy sector has been fairly strained.  Well Caroline Flint is the Labour MP for Don Valley and joins me now from Doncaster, a very good morning to you Ms Flint.  First of all, the overall picture concerning Labour and big business, I know you’re going to tell me you’re not anti-business, let me put it another way then, do you feel that the Blair and Brown governments of which you were part of was too pro-business?

CAROLINE FLINT:  Do you know, it’s interesting thinking back all those years ago to when we won in 1997 because actually Dermot there wasn’t one FTSE 100 company that came out for Labour at the time and I seem to recall also our windfall tax on the utilities and our proposal for a national minimum wage didn’t necessarily have broad support across the business community but look, the truth is this, Labour is absolutely committed to having a stronger and growing economy and that means that we need to make sure that we have certainty going forward, in my area of energy for example our decarbonisation target by 2030 which is about taking carbon out of our electricity, is supported by firms like Siemens, Alston, Philips, Unilever, Mitsubishi and Microsoft but in some areas some of our policies aren’t going to please all the businesses all the time.  So the choice we’ve made for example that a Labour government would give a tax cut on the business rate for small businesses and freeze it and therefore not do another cut to corporation tax is about us making a choice that we can help small businesses but at the same time have a competitive corporation tax rate for bigger firms as well.  And these are choices that we want to make which are about ensuring that we can have thriving businesses, competitive businesses but also raise the standard of living for people as well for securer jobs for the future.

DM: But you are also going to choose between businesses.  You’ve created these categories, producers or predators, and presumably you have the energy companies in the predator column.

CAROLINE FLINT:  I think that is  a distortion to be fair, Dermot.  Look, the price freeze …  

DM: They’re not my words, they are Mr Miliband’s.  

CAROLINE FLINT:  The price freeze which isn’t popular with all parts of the energy sector, the Big Six may not like it but it is to recognise that actually they haven’t been passing on wholesale cost falls in the past to their customers but also I think what I’ve been saying for the last four years about reforming the energy market actually has struck a chord, not just with the public but with the sector as well.  Independent generators, smaller suppliers welcome a number of our reforms because they feel they can get a bigger share of the market and even among the Big Six, Eon and SSE actually welcome our plan to separate the way in which generation and the supply businesses are being done.   So there…

DM: Okay, they welcome that but what …  

CAROLINE FLINT:  So there are different views.   

DM: But what about the price freeze and the Big Six, there are those consumer organisations who say that they feel and we’ve seen and presumably welcome the price cuts that they have introduced over the last few weeks, but they feel that some of those cuts might even have been bigger had you not announced this price freeze, it’s been a disincentive to cut prices.  

CAROLINE FLINT:  I don’t accept that for one minute.  There is always an excuse by the big energy companies as to why they won’t cut our prices when their wholesale costs fall.  We are very clear, our price freeze is to compensate the British public for overcharging in the past but also whilst we have the price freeze, we will give the regulator powers to force wholesale cut falls if these companies don’t do it first and we’ll be reforming the energy market in other ways.  But the truth is, we need a country which can be stronger and more competitive but we need to recognise as well, Dermot, that businesses comes in all shapes and sizes and there has to be an offer for small businesses in our communities like Doncaster as well as the big city firms in the City of London and importantly, when people going into this election will be worse off than in 2010, we have to offer workers in this country the chance to raise their standard of living with good employment practices but also a better standard of living with a better national minimum wage and a living wage.  

DM: Okay, just let’s drill down a bit on this issue of predators and producers, you mentioned your own constituency there in Doncaster, you wrote in the Doncaster Free Press very recently and you said, and this is a quote, ‘I’m delighted that established firms like Robin Hood Airport have signed up to the apprenticeship scheme’, they’re a good company are they?

CAROLINE FLINT:  Robin Hood Airport is one of the companies in Doncaster that’s making a huge difference, not only at the airport, there’s something like a hundred businesses out on the site since it was established and I’m very pleased as a local MP that when I became an MP it was planned that it would be another prison in my constituency.  I’m glad we were able to stop that and have a vibrant business park that’s operating today and actually Robin Hood Airport have signed up to a scheme which I’m doing which is to encourage employers in Don Valley to offer work experience placements on a voluntary basis to young adults who are currently unemployed.

DM: But Robin Hood Airport is owned – and this is why I am asking, particularly after what your leader said about tax havens as well, is owned by Peel Group, it’s a property firm owned by the tax exile John Whittaker who lives on the Isle of Man.  Is it a good and well-run company that pays its fair share of taxes?

CAROLINE FLINT:  Well what I would say to you, Dermot, on the ground in my constituency Robin Hood Airport is making a difference but without fear or favour of any business, Labour is very clear that we need to have tax policies that tackle where businesses may take their profits and take them overseas by registering their companies elsewhere and therefore in doing so avoid tax here in the UK.  So it’s very simple for Labour, we can recognise the good jobs that businesses do in this country, whether it’s Robin Hood Airport or Starbucks or Amazon or anyone else but we will have a system whereby, as I say, without fear or favour everybody pays the right tax and I think that’s the right approach to take on this rather than some approach that seems to suggest that we can make one rule for one group of business and another rule for others.  Most businesses in this country, most of the businesses in Doncaster, pay their tax.  

DM: Yes, but that specific question about the subsidiary of one of the companies that has been criticised, let me read you this from the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the scourge of companies and people who don’t pay their fair share of tax, Margaret Hodge visited the premises of Peel Holdings and said that they should pay their fair share of tax.  I am going to put my specs on to read it out correctly for you, Margaret Hodge said Peel Group was not contributing enough to the Inland Revenue, the Group paid a maximum average of 10% corporation tax, they do not pay their fair share, quote/unquote.   Do you agree with Margaret Hodge?

CAROLINE FLINT:  Well what I agree with, with Margaret, is that every company whoever they are, whether they are based in my constituency or elsewhere, whether they have subsidiary companies as part of  their group, should pay their fair tax.  I am unequivocal about that Dermot but what I would say to you is that in my constituency, the people who work at Robin Hood Airport, the people on the site, the hundred businesses that are there, are all playing a valuable contribution.  I’ll just say to you, it’s like many people in this country who work for firms like Peel, like Boots and others, they are working hard and providing for their communities but the people that run these companies have to pay fair tax and if that isn’t the case then they should be held to account.  That is why Labour is saying that without fear or favour of anybody, that we need to have a tax system that is more transparent, that recognises the input of small businesses, not just the big corporate giants and make sure that where people should be paying their dues, they certainly should.  And the truth is, as you know Dermot,  when I became an MP 18 years ago we didn’t even have email, certainly internet shopping and everything else wasn’t as vibrant as it is today, so we need to keep one step ahead of where companies place their profits, pay their taxes, register their companies, to make sure that when they are trading here in the UK they pay their fair share.  

DM: All right, Shadow Energy Secretary, thank you very much indeed, Caroline Flint there.