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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well oil prices are at five year low and heading downwards, the cost of crude oil has been on that downward trend for months now but is that translating into lower energy bills for consumers?  Labour say they will force energy companies to cut their prices when wholesale costs fall.  Well I’m joined now by the Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint and very good morning to you.  We will discuss that in just a moment or two but almost hot off the press is that deal – or is it a deal? – in Lima in Peru on climate change, a lot of people saying it’s fairly weak, it’s cobbled together just to get everyone signed up.

CAROLINE FLINT: Well what’s really positive out of the discussion is that for the first time we’ve got both the, if you like, the developed countries and the developing countries on the same page in that they have all agreed that they all need to reduce their carbon emissions and that’s important because up to now, understandably some of the developing countries have said you in the UK and in America, you’ve been pumping out all these carbon emissions, why should we take some of the load but actually I think the fact that Lima has come to the point where they are on the same page and crucially in all of this, China and US are on the same page, that does indicate that as we move toward Paris next year there’s everything in a better way to play for.

DM: But it’s interesting the way it comes, and we’ll move on to the territory we’re going to discuss in more detail now, particularly the fall in the oil price.  We now know that nations are going wow and fracking and shale gas and all that form of energy which is pretty carbon intensive, nations are going it is actually cheaper to burn this kind of energy now so you have got the deal on the one hand but the reality right now is nations are getting their hands on a lot of cheap fuel.

CAROLINE FLINT: But I think it is about looking at the more long term.  We do need to do something about climate change and the fact that everyone has come together at Lima to say …

DM: But it’s kicking the can down the road isn’t it?

CAROLINE FLINT: But the truth is, Dermot, if we just rely on the old fossil fuels then we back ourselves into corner for the future and the truth is, actually the smart money is in low carbon and if you are living in parts of Africa for example where you don’t have access to electricity, solar offers an alternative that is both cheaper but actually puts you at the cutting edge of new technology so for me it is about climate change but it is also about using money smartly to invest in a low carbon future which I have to say is very good for the UK but also very good for the developing countries.  

DM: Well let’s talk about it from the consumer end which in the introduction I mentioned that.  There’s an argument that the energy companies are making and as we are in this pre-election period the suspicion is that they are sitting there and keeping their prices relatively high as the wholesale cost of their energy drops and they are doing that because they fear Labour’s energy price freeze and whatever level you freeze it at, they want it to be higher rather than lower.

CAROLINE FLINT: I don’t accept that argument from them for one minute.  They have always got excuses for why when wholesale costs go up that needs to come on to our bills but when they go down we don’t see the benefit.  Let me be really clear here, the price freeze, Labour’s price freeze is in recognition that when wholesale prices fell back in 2009 by something like 45% we, and everyone watching this programme, didn’t see that translating into smaller bills for us so our price freeze is about compensating for bad action in the past but underpinning it is a whole series of reforms …

DM: I see you’ve got a penalty in there as well.  

CAROLINE FLINT: Well underpinning it is a whole series of reforms that will give, for example, the regulator the powers that when they see wholesale prices drop, if the energy companies don’t pass that on they can be forced to do that by the regulator.  

DM: But what’s the flexibility the other way?  If the oil price goes back up to $100 a barrel shortly after you’re elected which is not beyond the realms of possibility, no one knows where it’s going, what leeway do these companies have?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well look, oil prices – which is part of the discussion today – my colleague Michael Dugher has said already that we should actually follow what we’ve been talking about in terms of gas and electricity which oil plays a part but not a massive part, that we should be asking for the CMA to look at oil prices and the way that market works.  We already have a CMA investigation into gas and electricity prices, the truth about this is that we need reform of this market with stronger powers to make sure that yes, we pay a fair price for our electricity and gas but actually they can’t get away, and they have been getting away with it for years now, of holding us to ransom when the customer doesn’t feel they are paying a fair price and we’re going to put that right.

DM: Now talk to me about cuts and talk to me about austerity, that big speech by your leader last week.  The questions still remain about Labour, about what your aspirations are for particularly this level of public spending, the ration to GDP because you jumped on the idea that it was said we might go back to levels of public spending equivalent to that in the 1930s.  Where would you like to take it to?  You admit it has to come down but what kind of levels, given it is round about the mid-40s now, where would it go?

CAROLINE FLINT: Look, we have made very clear that what we want to see is an economy that works for everyone and if I was to sum it up it would be a Britain for the many not the few and in that we can reduce the deficit, we can reduce borrowing but we can do so in a way whereby we might make different choices to the way the Tories have gone about it and that is about saying we’re not going to give tax cuts to millionaires, we are going to look at fairness in the way we share the cuts but we will do it in a way that does not inhibit jobs and growth as well.  

DM: That’s just swerved the question altogether.  I am saying we are in the mid-40s now, in the 30s it was, I don't know, down in the 30s, down in the 20%, in 1945 it was 25%, in the 50s it was 35%.  What kind of level is about right aspirationally for Labour?

CAROLINE FLINT: I think it’s about us having access to the detail of what’s going on in government and I think it would be ridiculous for me to …

DM: But it’s a question about what kind of society we are.

CAROLINE FLINT: Well let me answer the question, I actually think that people do believe that a National Health Service is a good thing, that’s why they are very worried about privatisation of the NHS, that’s why they should be worried about UKIP saying we want a US style health system so the NHS is important.  We also think it’s important that every child has access to a good state education and that our security system offers a safety net for those who find themselves out of work and …

DM: So you are then more in the area of let’s say Denmark and Sweden … well it’s just these numbers, 52% of GDP on public spending or is it the American model, 35%?  Where should Britain be if it is going to be this fair society?

CAROLINE FLINT: I think part of it is making sure that we have access to look at the books and see what’s being spent and what should be uppermost in our mind are what are the things that people actually do think we should be spending taxpayers money on but in doing so how we can do that in a smarter way.  So my colleague Liz Kendall has talked about for example social care.  We know a huge amount of money is spent on social care at the moment, it’s not joined up with the health service.  Actually by bringing them together but looking at it in a different way, we can look at how we can better spend money and may get some cost savings in that.  That goes for other areas of public spending as well and what we will be doing, Dermot, is over the weeks and months ahead, and we have already had a few documents come out already from Yvette and other colleagues, our zero based review will show how we are as members of the Shadow Cabinet under the leadership of Ed Miliband, bearing down on where we think we can make savings.  But the truth is until we are in government we do not have access to the full range of data that the Tories have but the truth is it’s about choices.  Are we a country that is for the many not the few or are we for the few and not the many?  To be honest that pretty much sums up where we’ll be at the election and Labour will be on the side of the many.

DM: Let’s talk about the last time you were in government and all these allegations, these torture allegations, the investigation into what the Americans have found out about their own secret services and indeed have found out about ours but we don’t know about it.  We had Sir Malcolm Rifkind on from the ISC and he is saying the wants to talk without fear or favour to everyone who might know something about this so a lot of your colleagues will have to appear before his committee, will they not, and if they don’t they’ll have to go before a judge shouldn’t they?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well first of all we were very clear in government, David Miliband, Tony Blair and others, that they were totally opposed to the use of torture and as far as they were concerned that was not happened.  Now I heard Sir Malcolm Rifkind on the TV this morning as well and I would agree first that the Americans should reply the report where the redacted parts of it are relevant to the UK, our committee under Sir Malcolm should have access to that.  And actually if Sir Malcolm wants to invite people from the last Labour government to that committee I think that’s fair enough as well and that will be …

DM: Invite them?  Mustn’t they go?  David Miliband must appear before that committee mustn’t he because if anything is found to contradict what he’s told us in the past he has to talk to them.  

CAROLINE FLINT: Well you’re suggesting that somehow, maybe you’re not suggesting that David Miliband wouldn’t go before the committee.  I’m sure…
 
DM: I’m not suggesting anything but shouldn’t it be voluntary.  

CAROLINE FLINT: I’m sure that if asked anybody involved in the last Labour government would be open to going before committee to say what they knew or what they didn’t know for that matter.  We’ve been very clear and we were clear in government as well that we need to have confidence that the policy of the UK government which is the same now as it was under Labour, is that we do not condone torture in any circumstances is held to and if that hasn’t happened then we need to know why.  

DM: Okay Caroline Flint, thank you very much, very good to see you.