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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the new Director General of the CBI, the Confederation of British Industry to give it its full name, is leading calls to see more women in leadership positions.  Well Carolyn Fairbairn says it now time to change the focus from the number of women on boards and to change our attention from glass ceilings to sticky floors.  She’s with me now and a very good morning to you, Director General.  Sticky floors suggests a lot of women aren’t really reaching lift off point at an early stage in their careers.

CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: Well I think what’s really interesting is that we’ve had a big success in terms of women on boards so Lord Davis set a voluntary target a few years ago for 25% and we’ve hit it and it’s been fantastic and we’ve got much more diversity around our board tables but I think what’s very striking is that at the executive level, at the level of CEOs, CFOs, directors of divisions, we still only have about 10% women and now I think it’s time to ask the question why.  What a number of CEOs are telling me is that at the point at which they want to promote their top women, women are saying actually I’m not sure that is really quite for me and I have got friends who have made exactly that choice.  

DM: So it is a career choice that people are saying, I’m not sure I want the stress, the responsibility and the hours?  

CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: I think there are some difficult choices that people, men and women, make in their 40s, in their 30s and 40s, about what they really want to do and these are quite exposed jobs, they are hard work and I think that is actually where for perhaps women in particular, feeling if it is a world you want to be in, that you belong, that you can see other people like you is a factor that plays in those decisions.

DM: But when companies accept that and take that on, what can they do to change the internal environment that will then change the individual perception?

CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: I think it is a lot of things added up which is one of the reasons why I think moving to some kind of voluntary target that businesses have would be a good thing because I think it’s to do with all sorts of things. It’s to do with the kind of behaviours, the kind of social conventions, I’ve mentioned before about the kind of extra-curricular things whether they are dinners or sporting events that aren’t necessarily things that women want to do and it is many different things and a voluntary target I think would …

DM: So the old club system, whether it is formally in a club or not, but it is more of a male thing?   

CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: I think it’s disappearing but it is disappearing slowly and whether there are things we could do to … and the other thing I think that some businesses I know have found very helpful is for women to have development plans that enable them to see what the future looks like.  If they don’t see that many women in top roles what does that feel like and that look like, so I think there are a number of things that can be done.

DM: But from what you are saying, and it is much debated isn’t it, some other countries have gone for formal quotas but you don’t support that?  

CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: I don’t support quotas, I think they can backfire, they feel like box ticking, they don’t get the right change of behaviour.  

DM: Okay, I wanted to ask you while you’re with us, the CBI obviously it’s view on the economy is very much listened to, you have got some quite worrying figures haven’t you?  Straws in the wind of perhaps not so good times ahead.


CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: Well there are definitely risks so compared with the middle of last year when the economy was growing strongly on most cylinders, manufacturing has been difficult throughout but the other cylinders were going strongly, we have started the year with a number of risks, from China, from the US interest rate increase and these are playing.  You can see, we took a pulse check of our businesses at the end of December and they are seeing a slow-down.  Now some of the sectors are still very strong, so the consumer facing sectors, consumer and retail business is growing really well but manufacturing absolutely [isn’t] stable and slightly … it’s mixed.  

DM: So your view on the Bank of England governor, he’s warned us in the past about interest rates having to be normalised, whatever that means, at some point – he’s backed off from that.  You would presumably back him up and say now is not the time?

CAROLYN FAIRBAIRN: I think we need to be very careful.  The risks are definitely, the year has started I think in a more fragile state than some people had thought but that said, our economy has still come out of recession very well so I think there’s no cause for any panic but the considerations around interest rates I think do need to build in the new factors in the global economy.

DM: Great talking to you, Director General, thank you very much indeed.  Carolyn Fairbairn there from the CBI.