ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:  The Prime Minister has confirmed the worst kept secret of the referendum so far, its date. He had been urged by the leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland not to call the vote on June 23rd because of how close it is to May’s national and local elections.  I am joined now by the First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, who is at the Welsh Labour Conference in Llandudno, a very good morning to you Mr Jones.  So let’s talk about that date, there was nothing really you could do, you had sent the letters, had the conversation with the Prime Minister but he has gone for June 23rd, why do you think it will distract from the Welsh elections?

CARWYN JONES:     Well there won’t be a campaign in effect in Wales  to remain in the EU, we have an election campaign to fight and we’ll get to May 5th, all the parties will be on their knees in terms of energy, in terms of money and then we’ll have six weeks to put together an effective all party campaign leading up to eh referendum, that’s the problem.  I can’t imagine there being a situation where there was a general election across the UK in May and then a referendum six weeks after.  

DM: And also within the issues up to May, particularly if you are talking about one of the biggest ones, the economy and jobs, you have got to be discussing the future of the UK and the European Union too.    

CARWYN JONES: It’s part of it.  We know how important it is for us in  Wales to be able to trade freely with the market of the UK and the much bigger market of the EU but what we’re saying to people is that May’s elections are about who runs the health service, education, the economy in Wales and yes, there is a European referendum a month after that but that’s a different issue.  

DM: So what would have been a better date?   

CARWYN JONES:     For me the autumn.  There’s no question that the Prime Minister has a right to hold a referendum, I don’t dispute that but to have it so close to an important set of elections is very, very difficult.  He and I are on the same side when it comes to Europe, on little else but on Europe we are.  We both want to see the UK remain in the European Union but the problem is it will be very difficult to have an effective remain campaign in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland when there are elections being fought.   

DM: You mentioned there the Prime Minister being on the same side on this issue, do you think he got a good deal in Brussels because Jeremy Corbyn said he was tinkering and what he got was irrelevant?

CARWYN JONES:     Well he went to get a deal, I think the deal is certainly something that I can live with because I know there are bigger things at stake here.  I know how important European Union membership is to our economy, we have 150,000 jobs that depend on it.  I know that what the outside are saying effectively to people is jump off the edge of this cliff because there will be a net on the other side, that’s a leap of faith and I don't believe it will be there.  We know where we are now, I want Britain to be at the heart of Europe, influencing what’s going on in the European Union rather than shouting in the crowd on the sidelines.

DM: There are arguments for leaving.  Let’s look at what’s happened recently, we’ve all been reporting on it, things like the steel industry and its effect in parts of Wales there, saying that the European Union hasn’t really been doing much to protect that industry.  

CARWYN JONES:     Nor has the UK government.  One of the things that the EU needs to do is to make sure that the tariff buyers are in place to help.  They are doing that now.  For a lot time the pound was very strong, it’s improved a little bit lately but certainly it was very strong for a long time against the euro and that didn’t help us and energy prices in the UK, that’s nothing to do with the European Union.  We know that energy prices in the UK are much higher than in Germany and in Spain, that’s not helping our industries that are high energy users and that’s where the UK government needs to take action.  

DM: And is one of your concerns about the overlapping of the dates of the two votes, things like of course UKIP being prominent within the referendum campaign, do you think that will give them a boost in the Welsh elections?

CARWYN JONES:     It’s difficult to know.  I think some people will be influenced by that, others will say there’s a referendum on that in June so I’m going to vote along the lines of who I want to run Wales in May and we look at UKIP, they’ve a leader in Wales who was personally appointed by Nigel Farage, not elected by their membership and there has been a lot of fighting publicly in UKIP over that in the past fortnight.  Six of their general election candidates have signed a petition calling on him to resign so UKIP are fighting with each other in public at the moment.  We don’t know what the effect of that will be on the campaign.  

DM: But you have said, haven’t you, that Labour face the toughest ever assembly elections since devolution began, just expand on that.   

CARWYN JONES:     Well we have a lead in the opinions polls, a clear lead in the opinion polls, we know that but we want to go even further, we want to make sure that we are a majority government after May.  We know that the Conservatives are our main opposition in most parts of Wales, UKIP are not going to take seats directly from us but they can take votes from us to let the Tories in.  Now what we’ve said to people is that we understand people’s frustrations but a lot of this is just snake oil and this idea that somehow the UK can control its own borders without the help of other countries, it’s cloud cuckoo land.  We have a large land border with the Republic of Ireland for example, is there going to be an electric fence around that?  We know that Switzerland, not a member of the European Union, has a much higher rate of immigration than the UK.  This is a European issues that needs European solutions and the question is this: do we want Britain to be on the sidelines, on the periphery of Europe or right at the heart of Europe, influencing what happens in Europe itself?  For me it is much better to be on the pitch playing than in the crowd shouting.

DM: But the toughest ever Assembly elections, how much tougher is Jeremy Corbyn making it for you?  Is he seen as an asset in Wales?  

CARWYN JONES:     Look, the difficulties that have been experienced in London with some of the arguments that have taken place are not helpful, let’s not pretend that they are but this is a Welsh election.  The policies we produce here are not influenced in any way by what happens in London, I’m the leader of Welsh Labour and I am Welsh Labour’s candidate to be First Minister and as Welsh Labour, as you might expect, we fight the election as a Welsh party looking to form a Welsh government.  

DM: But obviously with Jeremy Corbyn in overall lead of the UK Labour party are you planning to campaign together?  

CARWYN JONES:     We welcome support from wherever it comes in the UK but I’m in the forefront of this, in Welsh Labour.  I expect Jeremy to be in Wales campaigning with us, of course I do, we want help from our colleagues elsewhere in the UK but it’s very much a Welsh Labour campaign led by myself and by the Ministers I have in government together with our fantastic backbenchers.   

DM: I just didn’t get that straight, but with you First Minister, Jeremy Corbyn with you?  

CARWYN JONES:     I expect I will be on the campaign stump with Jeremy in the course of the campaign, Jeremy is of course welcome to support our campaign here in Wales but as I say, this is a Welsh Labour campaign looking to form a Welsh Labour government and when it comes to policy, when it comes to the manifesto, when it comes to our pledges they are always made in Wales.  

DM: Great talking to you, First Minister, thank you very much indeed.  The First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones, there.