ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: On that issue of resignations in the Shadow Cabinet this morning, I’m joined by Chris Leslie, the Labour MP who was Shadow Chancellor of course until last September, a very good morning to you Mr Leslie.  Let’s cut to the quick, do you think Corbyn should go voluntarily, it would make it much easier for the party?

CHRIS LESLIE: Yes, I think it’s a moment this weekend for Jeremy to reflect on the result of the referendum and the period before it when we need very clear and strong Labour leadership to communicate what was at stake in that referendum.  Now of course we accept the result but the result of course was a few percentage points one way or the other and a lot of people in the Labour party today, and I’m not just talking about the parliamentary Labour party, ordinary members who know that Jeremy is a good and decent man, are I think realising that he is not the best leader going forward, that his heart was not in the campaign in that European contest and that if Jeremy had struggles to mobilise even our core support in the country let alone reach out beyond that, we will struggle in an earlier general election which could be four months away not four years away.

DM: And you need someone who looks like a winner, you’re saying Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t but all the indications are, especially with the sacking of Hilary Benn and news coming in from his allies, John McDonnell, saying he won’t stand and there are plenty of people who can fill any vacancies in the Shadow Cabinet and he has said it as recently as yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn, that he’s not going anywhere and if he is taken down he’ll just stand again.

CHRIS LESLIE: Look, this is one of those unchartered pieces of territory after a referendum, the whole country needs to make sure we have not just a functioning government but a functioning opposition that is able to hold that government to account.  This is a really crucial time and it is not just one part of the Labour party here, Hilary Benn, Heidi Alexander, great good people at the centre of the party, people of integrity, if they can’t have confidence in Jeremy’s leadership going forward I think Jeremy needs to just spend this period of time reflecting on that.  We know there is going to be a vote of the full parliamentary Labour party, it looks as though it’s Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I think it would be far better for everybody if Jeremy did the decent thing, reflected on that and allowed the party to get itself in the right shape heading towards potentially that early general election. This is serious stuff.

DM: You reckon we could be four months or so away from another general election, who are you going to get who looks like a winner and who are you going to get that can square this circle for you and say to the members who elected Jeremy Corbyn, you are heading in the wrong direction, we are leaching support?

CHRIS LESLIE: There are lots of issues of course we have got to balance across the centre left of the political spectrum but everybody, whether it’s party members or those who want to see an alternative to the Conservatives knows that this is a serious point in time, we have got to come together and make sure that we are able to reach out to a majority of voters in this country.  

DM: Any names in mind?  

CHRIS LESLIE: I think that is premature, I think that’s …

DM: Are you saying someone like Dan Jarvis?

CHRIS LESLIE: I think there are lots of very good people who are capable of doing that but what I think this weekend is it is time for us to be, as politely as we can, inviting Jeremy to consider his position, to think about …  

DM: But given the timescale you just described to me you need someone in there. Do you think someone like Dan Jarvis could unify the party and then appeal to the country, he’s only got a few months?  

CHRIS LESLIE: There are lots of good people and plenty of them, whether they are from the Shadow Cabinet or not in the Shadow Cabinet currently, will want to reflect on that if there is a vacancy for leader.  It’s not clear yet, we haven’t had that vote of confidence in the PLP, that’s still to come, we don’t know what’s happening with the rest of the Shadow Cabinet but I think that Jeremy should talk to other close colleagues and Members of Parliament and ask this question: do you have confidence in me as leader of the Labour party?  And unless he gets that clear answer then he has to come to his own conclusion because to not do so would be terrifically damaging.

DM: With the current mindset of many of the membership and those rules you’ve got in place then even if you don’t get Jeremy Corbyn you get someone like him, do you fear the party could be heading for some form of oblivion?  You’ve lost Scotland, the referendum showed us just how many Labour voters, core Labour voters you’ve lost in so many parts of the country, if you continue on this course what happens to the party?

CHRIS LESLIE: Well actually I am more optimistic than that.  I have great faith in the strength of Labour values and the common sense of both Members of Parliament in the Labour party and the Labour party members who are already I think shifting their position and realising that we can’t go on like this and I’m getting messages, many others are, saying look, let’s find a way through this.  I think if we invite Jeremy to think about and reflect on what is the position after the referendum , it wasn’t good enough to lose that national contest and if we couldn’t win that national contest could we really do any better in one in four months’ time so …?

DM: Do you think it could get bloody?  He’s dug in, isn’t he, Jeremy Corbyn, it could get very messy.

CHRIS LESLIE: I think that we need to be able to form an opposition, to form a front bench …  

DM: I hear what you say but we also hear what Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters say.  If he digs in and the determination by the Parliamentary Labour Party is to get him out, it could get very messy, you’ve got to admit that.

CHRIS LESLIE: There isn’t a challenge at this stage, I think this is a question of asking colleagues as appropriately as people can, do they have confidence in his leadership?  As Hilary Benn quite rightly said this morning, he is a good man, a decent man but he is not the best leader that we could have and I think that is a consensus that is rapidly emerging across the Labour family.

DM: Let me ask you the bigger picture, question, when all this happens if it ever does happen in terms of what you want with the Labour party, would you see – and there is a general election perhaps in the autumn or later – would you see a possibility for the party to stand on a platform which says we are unequivocally in favour of membership of the European Union and we are going to do everything in our power to maintain a very good relationship at least with them?

CHRIS LESLIE: Of course we would want to be always an internationalist party, looking out and having those relationships …

DM: … but parliament is sovereign.  

CHRIS LESLIE: I think we have to accept the result of the public even if we didn’t argue for that, that’s the way the referendum process, the democratic process works but we as a Labour party will always be passionately pro-international, pro-engagement and building alliances. Those can be built in lots of different ways going forward and that’s why we need strong leadership to understand that but also get a balance on other issues whether it’s immigration, trading relationships, it’s that sense of balance, that sense of fair play that many of those who voted to leave the EU are looking for in a strong Labour party now and that’s the sort of leadership we need.

DM: Okay, Chris Leslie, thank you very much indeed.