ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So, I seem to be saying this quite regularly at the moment, another difficult week for Labour with the party in disarray over air strikes in Syria.  Although the party has yet to decide its official position, Jeremy Corbyn the leader has made his personal opposition clear but a number of MPs, including several in his Shadow Cabinet, disagree with warnings some might even resign if the vote is whipped, i.e. they are forced to go along with Mr Corbyn’s view.  Well I am joined now by a man who just a few months’ ago tipped as the party’s future leader, he is of course Chuka Umunna and a very good morning to you.  I know Mr Corbyn has been on the Marr Show this morning, you amongst others widely thought that he might say that Labour MPs can have a free vote on this issue.  He hasn’t said that yet, do you think he should?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I think where it’s impossible to achieve at least a degree of consensus within the party on an issue like this, I don’t see that there is any other option but let me be absolutely clear, Jeremy is a good and decent man who has very deeply held beliefs.  I absolutely respect that, I respect the mandate that he has from the membership of the Labour party.  Let’s not forget, he is not going to be by any stretch of the imagination the first leader of the Labour party to have a situation where there is a mixture of views in the parliamentary party.  I strongly opposed the Iraq war, I wasn’t a public figure at the time but I thought it was a grave mistake and in that situation Tony Blair had 139 Labour MPs take a different view from him so Jeremy is certainly not the first and I’m sure he won’t be the last Labour leader to be faced with a range of views.  But I think on this issue where we all share the same values, myself and Jeremy and everybody else in the parliamentary party, we all want to see a more peaceful, secure and harmonious world.  We all have that but we have a few different views as to how you bring that about and it’s an incredibly difficult job being the Leader of the Opposition, it really is and I’ve seen it up close with Ed Miliband, I was his Parliamentary Private Secretary for a while, it is very, very difficult but I do hope that we can find a way through this where we can reconcile the different views. Personally I think there is no shame, there is no shame in there being a broad range of views on issues of war and peace in a Labour party.  I’d much rather actually have a situation like this than a parliamentary party or a whole cadre of MPs who just wave through things and by the way, we mustn’t forget, the Conservatives have their own issues on this as well. The Conservative Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, Crispin Blunt and Julian Lewis the Chair of the Defence Select Committee have quite different views on this and part of the reason I am absolutely sure that the Prime Minister is reluctant to move ahead with this vote on Wednesday if he can’t be sure that there will be sufficient numbers of Labour MPs to support what he wants because he can’t be sure there will be sufficient numbers of people on his own side to support it.  Let’s not forget, he has a majority … The Prime Minister has a majority and he is not confident of getting …

DM: A slim one.  

CHUKA UMUNNA: A slim one and he is not confident of getting all his MPs through the division lobby so this isn’t just an issue for the Labour party and for people to kick around the Labour party, it is an issue for all parties.  

DM: It’s not hard to develop that analysis, is that do we think what Mr Corbyn has been doing this morning?  We thought he may announce a free vote for people like you who think the argument has been made but if he then creates enough doubts in the Prime Minister’s mind that perhaps the Labour party might try to whip its members, and we’ll talk about some of the potential consequences later, that there won’t even be a vote because the Prime Minister has always said he has to be sure he will get it through before he’ll call it.  

CHUKA UMUNNA: I don't know, I don't know what decision Jeremy is going to come to on this or what his motivation is not declaring when the free vote, if there will be a free vote, could come.  But I am absolutely clear that this isn’t about the internal politics of the Labour party, I have personally been very clear and honest about this, I have differences in view just on some issues with Jeremy on domestic policy but I …

DM: Will you vote according to your conscience come whatever, even if you are whipped you will vote for that?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Yes because I think on these issues you have to take that view, you have to do what you believe is right for the people that you represent and for our national security.  This has got nothing to do with whatever differences I may or may not have with Jeremy, this is about the issue.  It can’t be about internal party politics and on the issue I’m clear, our national security is threatened by ISIL, of that there is no doubt.  Seven foiled plots over the last 12 months, 30 UK tourists killed ISIL inspired in Syria, operations on the UK, in the UK being directed and orchestrated from Raqqah, ISIL luring our young people to go over and fight with them – we’ve had over 800 since the conflict began and half have come back, so that’s very clear and I think …

DM: Case made.  So if Jeremy Corbyn can’t see that he is not fit to be Prime Minster is he?  He’s not a credible Prime Minister.  

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, he has a difference in view and of course of the 63 countries in the coalition of course there are many leaders of countries not in the coalition who have taken a different view so I don't think that means he is unfit to be Prime Minister but my own personal view is that where our national security is threatened it would be wrong simply to leave it to others to deal with this.  Of course we can’t ignore the barbarity of this death cult who throw gay people off buildings, systematically rape women, carry out mass executions.  Now do I think military action – and by the way, I am minded to support military intervention but we have yet to see the wording of the motion that we’re going to be asked to vote on – but do I think that is going to resolve this conflict?  Of course not.  Do I think it is the only solution?  Of course not but what I do think it can do in the interim is I do believe that it will be able to degrade and start to dismantle what ISIL are doing and why do I think that?  Because if you look at what has happened in Iraq, Dermot, since we voted – and I voted in 2014 for military intervention in Iraq – 30% of the territory that was initially held by ISIL has now been retaken.  

DM: What do you think will happen though?  Again Jeremy Corbyn talked about consulting the membership, the supporters who have become members who  overwhelmingly voted for him to become leader, we know that many of them – and we are hearing in your own constituency are moving in in some numbers, there is talk of deselection.  If it comes to a whipped vote that you oppose, that you defy, do you fear for your seat?

CHUKA UMUNNA: For me I’ll be honest with you, it is not a factor that plays in my decision making.  I haven’t been threatened directly with deselection, my own local party passed a motion this week and we had a strong discussion on it.  There were a number of members who spoke very strongly in favour, some of the Muslim members in my constituency party spoke strongly in favour of action in the Middle East, others were against.  It was a very finely balanced debate but let’s not forget, the debate is being played out as if we are not already engaged with ISIL, we are in Iraq.  This is just a debate as to whether we extend it into Syria and at the moment the border between the two countries is fairly fictional.  ISIL operates in an ungoverned space across two areas and one of the important things that I know was playing with many members of the Labour party, not just in my own constituency but across the Labour party, was the legal basis for this. I think there is agreement across the board that with a UN Security Council resolution 2249 and in particular Article 51 of the UN Charter, there is a clear legal basis here for intervention and action.    

DM: I’m afraid we’re out of time, Mr Umunna.  Thank you very much indeed, very good to see you.