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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the German Chancellor Angela Merkel will meet David Cameron in London this week, high on the agenda is bound of course to be the European Union and Britain’s role within it.  The Prime Minister has said he won’t rule anything out in his renegotiation of Britain’s membership of the EU, a British exit therefore – what’s being called a ‘Brexit’ – is a real possibility.  Well Damian Green is a former Conservative minister and is one of the party’s leading pro-European voices and he joins me now.  A very good morning and a happy new year to you Mr Green.  Do you go along with the Prime Minister that he doesn’t rule anything out therefore the implication being that he, if he doesn’t get what he wants, could end up campaigning for no in a referendum?

DAMIAN GREEN: Well what he also says all the time which is very sensible is that he is not going into those negotiations expecting to fail and the more we hear from Angela Merkel, who you have just mentioned, about the way the German government and the German people are concerned about welfare payments and all the areas that worry people in this country, it does seem to me to be more likely than not that we will get a good deal for Britain so that we can then have the referendum, we will vote to stay in the European Union and then we can get on with life.

DM: Well how do you read the fact that Angela Merkel’s first visit of the new year is to the United Kingdom?  Is that a sign of her being terribly worried about the way the Germans view the UK as going or is it to put a shot across the bows?

DAMIAN GREEN: Well no, it is because the Germans are taking over the presidency of the EU but I think if you look at what she has been saying for the past few months, just as in this country we’re worried and David Cameron has said this and said what we were going to do about it, about people coming here not to work but to basically claim benefits or send benefits back to children who have never set foot in this country, the Germans have the same worries.  They have a generous welfare system as we do and they also think their welfare system is for the German people just as our welfare system should be for the British people, so I think there is a deal to be done there which will both save the taxpayer money, restore the sense of fairness in the welfare state and, as a side effect, reduce the numbers of people coming here from other parts of Europe so a deal can be done.

DM: So were you pleased to hear the Prime Minister this morning saying that he wants, we know if there is a Conservative government or even a Conservative-led government, the referendum is going to be in 2017, that he wants it as soon as possible in 2017?

DAMIAN GREEN: Well that’s perfectly sensible because obviously you’d have it as soon as the negotiations were through, both the French and the Germans will have elections coming up around that time so you’ll want to get it out of the way before then and as I say, I think there is, you can see the outlines of a deal on the table so the sooner we have the referendum the better so that we can actually have an intelligent national debate.  As you say, I am in favour of our membership of the European Union, I think we benefit from it economically and in terms of strengthening our voice in the world but I am quite happy to have this discussion across the board, let the British people decide whether we should stay in or not and I am confident that they will decide in that referendum that we are better served, for all the stresses and strains and irritations, we are better served by being a full constructive member of the European Union.

DM: But will you have … you mentioned the intelligent national debate, will you have an intelligent party debate?  As a Conservative you must be concerned given the different strands within the party, that as soon as the general election is over if as I say you win it or you become the biggest party after it, that then the Conservative party just turns on itself over the referendum and what you want in terms of the renegotiations and whether what you get is enough?  

DAMIAN GREEN: Well I think what will happen is that will be a public debate across all parties.  You are right of course, there are different strands of views within the Conservative party, there are a small group of people who say we should pull out whatever.  I think the centre of gravity of the party is that they want David Cameron’s renegotiations to succeed and they want us to continue as members of the European Union and I think that’s what will happen but it is absolutely clear that the sensible way to have this debate is outward facing with the British people.  I will be seeking and others will be seeking to persuade the British people and particularly in my case Conservative supporters, that it’s in our interests, it’s in Britain’s interests as a country to remain a member of the European Union, that we get jobs from it, that we get a bigger voice in the world from it, that Britain’s power can be projected more and that the good things about Britain, the ideals that we all cling to, can be projected around the world more effectively if we are a member of the European Union than if we sailed off on our own.  

DM: But within the party, wouldn’t one of the biggest sources of strain, and the Prime Minister reiterated it again this morning, wouldn’t one of the biggest sources of strain be that he says he would expect Ministers and Cabinet Ministers, depending on the renegotiations, all campaign one way?  We know, they are more or less open about it, there are members of the Cabinet right now who say that if the vote was now, they would vote no.  Some people are going to want to feel free to campaign for a no vote.

DAMIAN GREEN: Well I think there are two things about that.  First of all, nobody knows what the renegotiations are going to be achieve yet so we are not going to have a referendum now, we are going to have a referendum after the renegotiations and secondly, it is clearly up to the Prime Minister – this Prime Minister or any Prime Minister – to say the level of discipline he requires from his Ministers and obviously it is blindingly obvious but people are always free to leave the government if they say this is such a matter of principle for me, I can’t support what the government is doing on this matter or any other matter, then they can leave the government.   

DM: Mr Green, thank you very much indeed.  Damian Green there.