ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now if the UK leaves the EU single market, Scotland will hold a second referendum on independence.  Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister, described the Conservative party’s vision for the UK as xenophobic, closed, inward looking and discriminatory and she says she wants Scotland to remain at the heart of Europe.  Well I am joined now by the Secretary of State for Scotland, David Mundell MP.  A very good morning to you, Secretary of State.  Now given back in 2014 that the Scots voted to remain part of a UK that was inside the European Union and then this year 62% of them voted to remain in the European Union, don’t they have a perfect right to revisit that independence referendum?

DAVID MUNDELL: I don’t believe so, I believe that we have settled the issue of whether Scotland should be part of the United Kingdom.  We were told when we had our independence referendum back in 2014 it was for a generation and now there is an attempt to open it up again and when I cast my vote to remain in the EU I didn’t do so on the basis that it would be used to reopen the independence referendum, I cast a vote that the United Kingdom would remain in the EU and I did not cast a vote that if I did not get my way in the United Kingdom remaining in the EU, I would tear up the United Kingdom. I am afraid this is all just a pretext for bringing back to the frontline of politics what the SNP are all about and that is independence.

DM: So you are effectively saying that Wales and England have a perfect right to drag Scotland against its will out of the European Union?

DAVID MUNDELL: This was a UK wide vote, Scotland is not being dragged out of the European Union, the vote was that the United Kingdom leave the EU, Scotland having voted decisively, over two million people voting that Scotland would remain part of the United Kingdom and many people who voted remain did not do so on the basis that Scotland would then be dragged out of the United Kingdom just to further the SNP’s independence referendum if the vote went the other way.  It was quite clearly a United Kingdom vote, Nicola Sturgeon herself recognised it was a United Kingdom vote, she came down here to London to campaign for the United Kingdom to remain in the EU.

DM: But it is the forms of Brexit that she is now cavilling with.  Nicola Sturgeon, you will have heard her speeches to the conference, her interpretation was that the mandate, yes, was to leave the European Union but there was no mandate there to leave the single market of the European Union.

DAVID MUNDELL: Well we are obviously now beginning the process of leaving the EU. The Prime Minister set out at the Conservative party conference what that process would involve and I think she made it very clear that we would not get bogged down in existing arrangements but a new and unique arrangement for the United Kingdom would be negotiated but what we have been clear – and I’ve been clear since the 24th June – is that Scotland’s interests would be put at the heart of that negotiating process.  We’re in a process myself, I’ve had over 60 meetings with businesses, organisations, all sorts of interest groups across Scotland to hear what their issues and concerns.

DM: But you just said it, Mr Mundell, put at the heart the Scots but you were invited by invitation only to the so-called Brexit Committee, you are not a permanent member of it.

DAVID MUNDELL: The cabinet will make the decisions on Brexit and I’m a member the Cabinet …

DM: While you’re listening at the door.

DAVID MUNDELL: … and it will be the Cabinet that determines what happens, not committees and I am absolutely clear that Scotland’s interests will be at the heart of that but what the feedback is from businesses and all those around Scotland who want to see Scotland getting the best deal from the EU negotiating process is to take this independence argument off the table.  It’s not only a huge distraction, it’s hugely divisive in Scotland, it’s the most divisive issue.  If we are going to work together which is what will get Scotland the best deal, the UK government and the Scottish government working together as a team UK, then we need to have independence off the table.

DM: So just lay it out, I’m talking to Nicola Sturgeon in 20 minutes or so, just lay it out for the First Minister, Westminster will not legislate to allow the Scots to allow another referendum on independence?

DAVID MUNDELL: We’ve been very clear.  There are two issues: one is could there be another independence referendum?  Of course there could, that’s a process issue and it’s the sort of issue the SNP like because they can have a row about who gets to call a referendum but the big issue is should there be another independence referendum?  And the answer to that question is quite clearly no.

DM: So that legislation emanating from Westminster, you are saying that that process will not be visited this time?

DAVID MUNDELL: What I’m saying is that clearly Westminster are responsible for the holding of a referendum, we had a commission after the last referendum as to what powers would be transferred to the Scottish Parliament, that was not one of them but we’re not in that argument about process, we’re in the argument about should there be another referendum and the answer to that is very clearly no there should not and I believe that the fundamentals of Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom are stronger than ever in relation to …

DM: We’ve had that argument, Mr Mundell.  

DAVID MUNDELL: Well it has moved on, Scotland for example has grown …

DM: Well it is moving on and if Nicola Sturgeon says I detect among the Scottish people a will for another referendum then talk to me about the process, Westminster says no.

DAVID MUNDELL: No, I think that’s exactly the sort of argument she wants to get into.  We’re not in that argument because I don’t believe in any event that she could say that she detects a will amongst the Scottish people to hold an independence referendum.  Since she started ramping up the independence talk after the Brexit vote, actually support for having another independence referendum has gone down, even amongst people who support independence because they know it’s divisive and they know that the two governments in conflict will not actually get Scotland and the UK the best possible deal in the EU negotiations.

DM: What happens though if we do reach that point and Nicola Sturgeon says well we’ll hold one anyway, we will hold a referendum without the sanction of Westminster?  This is a huge constitutional crisis is it not amongst all the Brexit negotiations?

DAVID MUNDELL: We are not talking about that sort of scenario because Nicola Sturgeon herself, the Scottish Parliament accept that if there was ever to be another independence referendum it would be conducted on the same basis as previously with agreement between the two governments because any referendum – as the last one was – would need to be legal, fair and decisive and that’s exactly what we had in 2014, a legal, fair and decisive referendum which voted overwhelmingly that Scotland should remain in the United Kingdom.

DM: But what happens if you reach this point, you’re facing off against each other – Edinburgh, Holyrood versus Westminster and Nicola Sturgeon says we will hold an indicative referendum.  What then happens, do the Scots then win it and declare UDI?

DAVID MUNDELL: What I think we should all be putting our efforts into now is actually focusing on the issue ahead of us, which is a complex and challenging one and that is negotiating the UK’s exit from the EU and ensuring that in that process we get the best possible deal for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

DM: And you’d like to see a soft Brexit anyway would you, that might keep Scotland in.

DAVID MUNDELL: I don’t believe that the term soft and hard Brexit are particularly meaningful.  This will be a unique arrangement for the United Kingdom, a member state hasn’t left before, certainly not a significant member state so we will be coming forward with what will be a unique arrangement and I want to see in that arrangement Scotland’s interests very much at the heart of that process.

DM: What do you think about the Scottish government, this other thing Nicola Sturgeon has been saying about setting up, I suppose de facto embassies, certainly trade missions, starting in Berlin, Scotland not trusting the UK to look after its interests?

DAVID MUNDELL: Well I think there is a lot of rhetoric which was for the party conference in that process.  Scotland has been responsible for supporting trade, Scottish Development International already has offices at various locations around the world. We’ve worked successfully with Scotland in terms of trade promotion and actually that’s the best deal for Scotland, the two governments working together, the two trade missions working together.  What business doesn’t want is the two governments somehow competing with each other, they want them to work together and that’s what I want to see.

DM: One thing you might agree with Nicola Sturgeon on, I’m going to ask you and find out now, this issue of expansion of Heathrow, the SNP saying we understand the connectivity, a lot of people will transit from Heathrow and go to Scotland, they are in favour of expansion, where do you stand?

DAVID MUNDELL: I can’t comment on that because I’m part of the Cabinet, I can’t comment on the specifics of that process.  What I do fundamentally believe and will be a very important part of the process is that whatever the outcome, Scotland will need guaranteed slots so that when or if there is airport expansion there will be guaranteed flights to and from Scotland and that’s my number one priority.

DM: And can you tell us when a decision will be made?

DAVID MUNDELL: A decision will be made when it is made.  

DM: Okay, thank you very much.  David Mundell, Secretary of State for Scotland.