ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now Labour is holding its National Policy Forum in Loughborough this weekend and with a new poll showing that more than twice as many people trust Theresa May and the Chancellor Philip Hammond to run the economy than Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, they’ll be thinking hard about their economic policy.  Well I’m joined now from Loughborough by Debbie Abrahams, the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary and a very good morning to you, Debbie Abrahams.  Well with that perception about your top team on the economy, the spending commitments you’re making within the department you shadow, that’s not going to change it is it?

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: Well it’s about choices and what we are most concerned about is that people on low or middle income are bearing the brunt of the cuts that this government has introduced and it is going to get worse.  As we’ve heard the Chancellor himself saying there is a 100 billion black hole and this is largely because of the economy, which has been bumbling along along the bottom for the last six years and it has been exacerbated by Brexit unfortunately.

DM: Okay, well let’s talk about the choices because as I mentioned the spending commitments from the department you shadow, disability payments, universal credit, women’s pension credits, just three of the commitments you’ve made in the last little while, have you totalled up how much extra Labour would spend in this department than this government?

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: Well first of all to say again this is about choices.  We do not think it is right that that top earners are having tax breaks and people on the lowest incomes, in particular you mentioned disabled people and that’s a cost of about £640 million to 2020 and we don’t think it’s right that again disabled people who are twice as likely to live in poverty because of their condition or their disability, we don’t think they should be bearing the brunt of the cuts and nor should working people who are who are [inaudible], this government has presided over a low pay insecure labour market and we want to do something about that.

DM: But to give people choices they need the facts of course don’t they?  So it is those facts we’re asking for here, what would the total extra spend be within a DWP controlled by the Labour party and how much would you get from, you mentioned the tax rises from putting up the additional rate to 50p and from putting up Corporation Tax, would that cover it or would you borrow more?  It’s a simple question people will want to know the answer to.

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: Absolutely and that’s only fair.  What we have said is that the Resolution Foundation, an independent think tank, their research has shown that there are alternatives.  We’ve seen for example the cut in Corporation Tax which is about eighteen, eight billion rather to 2020, it is already one of the lowest Corporation taxes in the world and this shouldn’t be at the expense of people who are really, really struggling.  So I mentioned 640 million around the ESO WRAG, UC component is about two billion, there are choices and we say they are making the wrong choices and as I say people on the lowest income, people who are really struggling, are bearing the brunt of this.

DM: But even on your own figures you haven’t even got anywhere close to closing the gap there, 600 million or so versus two billion and that was just on Universal Credit, when you talk about the disability payments that I mentioned there and indeed I know you are very concerned about the way that women are being affected by the pensions changes, you want to mitigate that.  Have you added that in?

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: Yes, we have, all of our commitments and what we’re saying is the government has the choice.  At the risk of repeating myself, Dermot, these are very clear choices.  Inequality in this country is getting worse, we’ve seen boardroom pay increase by 50% where the average income of a worker has only increased by about 2% in real terms.  This is not the Britain that we want, we want to do things differently, we have fully costed plans and as I say it’s about making sure that people and businesses bear the brunt of the cuts and not people on low income, low pay and the disabled.

DM: I mentioned that poll about John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn, do you think though, and I have been talking, you may have listened, about the anti-establishment, anti-elitist mood and how it might sweep into France, do you think it might have a benefit for people like Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell that they could represent more effectively the people who feel left behind?

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: I think we’re seeing an influence already and I think you are absolutely right to refer to it.  Politicians and politics have borne a bad amount of press I have to say, and understandably.  I’m a new MP but I understand exactly how people have felt about this but we need to change, we need to make sure we are more in touch with our communities and we need to ensure that we are able to share power, which hasn’t happened in the past.  I think there has been this disconnect, this remoteness that we really do need to address.

DM: And on that remoteness and about elites and about money as well as we’ve been discussing, do you think it is worth spending £369 million on refurbishing Buckingham Palace?

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: I think there is a balance isn’t there?  I mean first of all I run past Buckingham Palace most days and the tourists that it attracts, you can’t discount that but at the same time we have just been talking about disabled people, five million disabled people living in poverty, having a third of their income through ESA, about £1500 a year, that’s being threatened and we need to balance that.  I’m sure Her Majesty would want to do the right thing and contribute to that refurbishment as well. We can’t have people living in dire poverty living at the streets, not just in London but in Manchester and in my own constituency in Oldham, we can’t be having this sort of thing in our country.

DM: And do you think Her Majesty would be right to meet President Trump when he becomes so.  I don't know if you did but I know many in the Labour party thought he should be banned from the UK for comments he’s made about Muslims and women amongst other things.  

DEBBIE ABRAHAMS: He will be the elected head of state of the United States of America and we need to respect that so it would be only right as head of state of this country also meet with him.  His comments are entirely regrettable and as a leader, not just of his country but also in the world, he needs to make sure which he moderates his language and I think we are seeing a slightly different tone over the last few days aren’t we?

DM: Okay, Debbie Abrahams, good to talk to you, thank you very much indeed.