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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: It emerged this weekend that Labour plans to put Jeremy Corbyn more in the public eye next year with more frequent appearances on television in an effort to boost the party’s ratings in the polls and address the new populism but on the big questions for the party, immigration and Brexit, there still seems to be, well not many answers.  Let’s try and get some now with Diane Abbott, the Shadow Home Secretary and a very good morning and a Merry Christmas to you, Diane Abbott.  It’s interesting that we ended our news bulletin there with a picture of Her Majesty the Queen, you are going to be meeting her soon to be sworn in as a Privy Councillor, are you going to take that oath to be a true and faithful servant?

DIANE ABBOTT: I couldn’t possibly comment, I couldn’t possibly comment and you know that.  

DM: But it is normal for someone in your position on the front bench to be elected to the Privy Council, if you were you are going to have to say you are going to have to be a loyal and faithful servant, is that something you would say with your fingers crossed?

DIANE ABBOTT: The proceedings of the Privy Council are meant to be private so I can’t comment on whether I am going to join it and I can’t comment on what I am going to do …

DM: Well it’s private if you go to it, you haven’t gone to it yet.  

DIANE ABBOTT: I can’t comment either way.

DM: But overall you are not in favour of the UK having a monarchy, you have talked in the past about abolishing it.  

DIANE ABBOTT: I think you’ll find that if I did say that, it was 30 years ago.  I am in favour of having a monarchy, the British people have huge respect for the Queen and I am in favour of having a monarchy.

DM: Okay, well I also want to ask you while we are talking about oaths here, what about this discussion this morning, we’re reading in the papers, this oath for civil servants and others to uphold British values?  This suggestion from Sajid Javid to address the problems, and we’ve all talked in the past haven’t we, about the problems with integration, would this be part of the solution in your view?

DIANE ABBOTT: I’m not sure it will do anything to deal with the question of integration or the question of radicalism, however if the Tories really want people to swear an oath why don’t they … part of the oath that is being suggested is about upholding the legal system and respect for the law, so why don’t they get some newspaper proprietors to swear that oath because we’ve seen terrible coverage in the papers where they call judges the enemy of the people.  Maybe if newspaper proprietors swore an oath to uphold the law we wouldn’t see those ridiculous front pages.

DM: It is a rather strange conjunction there you’ve made.  That is an issue, much discussed, but I can’t see it making much difference whether newspaper proprietors swore oaths about their coverage but this issue …

DIANE ABBOTT: But you think it will make a difference if other people swear it?

DM: I’m asking you if you think it will make a difference.

DIANE ABBOTT: I’m not against it in principle but it will not make a difference for the problems of radicalisation or integration.

DM: But the problem’s there, I mean you will identify the problem of people who come to this country, who live in this country, who were born in this country, many who feel that many of the institutions or the values of Britain do not apply to them or they want to destroy them?

DIANE ABBOTT: I don't think there are many people like that.  I have a very diverse population in Hackney – Muslims, West Indians, people from Turkey, they are living in London and living in this country because they value what this country has to offer and they respect its institutions, particularly people who originate from the Commonwealth, so I don't think the oath will make any verifiable difference.

DM: Tell me about this idea of repackaging Jeremy Corbyn, isn’t part of his appeal, to those he appeals to, isn’t part of his appeal that he’s not packaged, that he’s his own man, he is what he is?

DIANE ABBOTT: No one is talking about packaging him but I think he probably will be out in the media more in the coming year because what we find is that when Jeremy is actually on the radio or on television, actually he can relate to people and it encourages people to relate to what he’s saying.

DM: This idea of populism, we’ve just had a panel discussion in the last hour looking at international affairs and some of my commentators there saying the thing about populism is that it doesn’t necessarily have to appeal to the right.  Is that Labour’s calculation?

DIANE ABBOTT: Yes, I mean one of the most populist American President was FDR Roosevelt and he was very much in the American context on the left, so populism isn’t just about the right, it’s about people feeling that you understand their problems and it’s about people feeling that they can actually relate to you and we think we can do that on the left as well.

DM: But with you and Jeremy Corbyn talking about people feeling you understand their problems, if anything the Brexit vote told us is that people have big concerns about the impact of immigration on their communities and you and Jeremy Corbyn are on the record as saying you don’t see the need for any substantial controls.

DIANE ABBOTT: People are very concerned about the impact of immigration on their communities, that’s why the Labour party is calling for a migration impact fund to deal with issues around schools and housing and in particular we want to crack down on employers who are exploiting immigrants by beefing up the Factories Inspectorate, by enforcement of the minimum wage, by doing away with exploitative zero hours contracts but we take those things extremely seriously but it does no good to scapegoat immigrants.

DM: But no restriction of numbers then?  You’ve said it, you will have a mitigation fund, you will put more money into areas where there are high levels of immigration and impact on public services but still that free movement certainly within the European Union or whatever relationship we have with the European Union?

DIANE ABBOTT: Well on the question of free movement, nobody supports free movement but it is a fact that within the EU free movement is one of the four pillars, it is part of the treaty, it’s seen as indivisible and non-negotiable and if we want to stay inside the single market for the benefit of the economy there’s probably going to have to be some trade off on freedom of movement.  

DM: So you would endorse – and you were there of course and I was too, for Jeremy Corbyn’s speech to the Labour party conference in Liverpool in September when he addressed immigration head on and just before one of his spokespeople was asked to be explicit about it, are you relaxed about numbers?  They said yes, it is not our objective to reduce numbers.  We are relaxed about numbers going up, that’s the position.

DIANE ABBOTT:  That was a spokesperson, you have never heard Jeremy say that because it’s not his view.  What we believe is if we bear down on exploitation we will bear down on levels of migration but setting numerical targets has not worked.  The Tories have done it for six years now and immigration is at record levels, we want to deal with the underlying issues in communities.  

DM: So you want to see the economy keep growing, if the economy keeps growing it is going to attract more people here, you therefore would be relaxed about the numbers going up if that were the case, if that were the cause?

DIANE ABBOTT: Well one reason why immigrants have come here in the past is because some British workers don’t have the right skills.  We’re really committed to putting money into education and skills training and that’s another way you bear down on the numbers of immigrants but as I say, we shouldn’t be scapegoating immigrants.  

DM: But it is a party problem isn’t it because we hear from other members, prominent members of your party the likes of Hilary Benn, Kier Starmer, Andy Burnham, the list goes on who say yes, we do have to do something about the numbers.

DIANE ABBOTT: Of course we’re going to do something about the numbers and we’re going to do it by the sort of skills training which means employers won’t have to bring so many immigrants in and they are bearing down at the other end of the scale on exploitation which again should bring down the numbers.  Nobody takes the issues around people’s concerns that led them to vote for Brexit lightly, we are just seeking to address them in a way that will work.

DM: So would you endorse, it was Gordon Brown that formulated it wasn’t it, British jobs for British workers, this is your ambition, that’s what you’re saying?

DIANE ABBOTT: That was Gordon Brown, this is me.  I am saying that we have to put the economy and jobs and our standard of living first but we won’t scapegoat immigrants.  In fact we think that Theresa May should guarantee the position of EU migrants who are currently here.  We want what’s good for Britain, good for the economy but we are not about scapegoating people and blaming immigrants for the failures of Tory policy on health and housing.

DM: Do you think the current number of strikes are good for Britain and good for the economy?  We haven’t heard much from the Labour front bench about the disruption that’s been caused in this run up to Christmas by the rail strikes, the ones on some airlines, the postal workers?  Would you like to say perhaps you ought to think about the public you serve?

DIANE ABBOTT: Of course we think about the public we serve and of course these strikes will be very disastrous if they all go ahead for the public over Christmastime but people do have a legal right to strike.  It’s not my goal to second guess the decisions of trade union leadership but in relation to Southern in particular, Southern has been a catastrophe and we need to take that franchise away from Southern and give it to the Mayor of London.

DM: Okay, I just want to play to you – I talked to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, your colleague in the party, Meg Hillier and this is what she had to say about the strikes.

MEG HILLIER: I think it is absolutely right that people should have the right to strike but I think it is a very unfortunate combination for people travelling, workers at a particularly difficult time of year and I think that all trade unions, even though they are fighting for their rights, need to really think about the impact on the people they are actually there to serve, their customers or their passengers and I think there needs to be a bit of a wake-up call on hard working people who are trying to get to work or go on holiday and I think if they’re not careful they could be shooting themselves in the foot.

DM: Shooting themselves in the foot, Diane Abbott, discuss.

DIANE ABBOTT: Meg is a well-loved colleague in Hackney, I agree what she says about that this is a really unfortunate situation but I’m not going to be second guessing the leadership of trade unions.  We need to remember it takes two to cause a strike, it is not just the trade unions but it is also the problems and incompetence of some management and Southern is an example of that, Southern Rail.

DM: But do you not think with some there is an agenda beyond protecting the rights of workers from some of these union leaders who have talked have they not, and you will be aware of them, have talked about using strikes as a political weapon?

DIANE ABBOTT: Well I don't know about that but I mean the disputes we are looking at are genuine industrial disputes and trade union leadership is entitled to take their strategy forward in the way they think is appropriate and we hope that some of these strikes won’t happen.

DM: So what would you say to the government, we’re hearing calls from Conservative MPs, some Conservative MPs say you need new laws to come in here to restrict these rights?

DIANE ABBOTT: No, I would be opposed to restricting people’s right to strike.

DM: There we are.  Shadow Home Secretary, thank you very much indeed maybe will be becoming a member of the Privy Council but can’t tell us, we’ll find out, very good to see you Diane Abbott.