Murnaghan Interview with Dominic Raab MP, Justice Minister and Vote Leave campaigner, 10.04.16
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS
DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, it’s not been a good week for Mr Cameron, his own words to his party’s spring conference yesterday as he called for unity in the Conservative ranks despite the troubles about his own personal finances and the ever-present Conservative split over the European Union. Well Justice Minister and supporter of the Vote Leave campaign, Dominic Raab, is here and a very good morning to you Mr Raab. First of all on what the Prime Minister has done in opening up his financial affairs to public scrutiny, do you welcome what he’s done?
DOMINIC RAAB: Well to be honest with you, amidst all the froth and frenzy of the media debate, it seems crystal clear that not only has not done anything illegal but that he’s not behaved improperly in any way and he’s gone further than any Prime Minister previously in publishing these tax returns and I think he wanted to show that he has got absolutely nothing to hide. Frankly, some of the personalised attacks on him and on his father have been deeply unsavoury. Jeremy Corbyn came in saying as leader of the Labour party he was going to introduce a kinder politics and yet he has been whipping up a mob mentality and engaging in leading these attacks and whipping up Labour MPs, some of them are behaving like frankly hyenas. I think it’s grotesque hypocrisy given what he said and really it is just about scoring political points, there is no substance to any of this at all in relation to trying to suggest the PM has done anything wrong.
DM: Well let me put to you some of the points, you have just seen my interview with the Westminster leader of the SNP, Angus Robertson, and he is saying well there are other issues here and in particular he was singling out the Chancellor, the Cabinet but in particular the Chancellor because he’s got his hands on the levers of Britain’s relationships with overseas dependencies and things like that, maybe he should follow suit here.
DOMINIC RAAB: Well look, I think the Chancellor will decide what he wants to do for himself but doesn’t this show you that it has got nothing to do with the substance. We’ve introduced new powers to deal with tax avoidance, we closed loopholes, brought in 12 billion in extra revenue. The tax gap which is the difference between what is owed in tax and what the government collects is at its lowest level on record so not only is this hypocrisy from Jeremy Corbyn and frankly some of the other politicians, to attack the Prime Minister when he has done nothing wrong, it’s not just personal hypocrisy but it is also policy hypocrisy because this government has done more than any government previously to crack down on illicit or wrong kind of tax avoidance, the kind of Machiavellian attempt to circumvent the rules, not to behave according to the spirit and the letter. We’ve done far more in history than any other government. Look the Chancellor can speak for himself but there is a sort of mob mentality where they’ve realised they can’t land a blow on the PM so they’re looking for the next one down the line.
DM: Well you kind of answered there, Mr Raab, haven’t you, in the introduction there I was mentioning about Conservative unity on this issue, the party remains united, certainly not on the European Union but on these kind of issues, yes.
DOMINIC RAAB: On the single issue of the EU the Prime Minister is the leader of the only party offering the British people their say and saying this is such a big debate that those who have different views as a matter of conscience should be free to campaign, that’s the only issue on which we disagree but I stand fully behind him and I think the way he’s been treated by the Labour party and others is absolutely appalling and I think he right to be sensitive about this. What kind of Prime Minister do you want, somebody who isn’t sensitive when his family, his dead father have been attacked, what kind of man would he be if he didn’t actually behave rather sensitively about those things?
DM: What about one of the issues and let’s relate this to the European Union as Mr Robertson raised as a fervent believer in the UK and indeed Scotland remaining within the European Union, he wants to win the referendum, you want us to leave of course, is there part of you that thinks this has damaged that campaign in that the Prime Minister is leading the campaign to remain in the European Union and he’s taken a blow here on the issue of trust?
DOMINIC RAAB: I’m not interested in the kind of polling or the commentary on the commentary, I’m interested in the substance. We are never going to have a chance to debate what is one of the big issues of our time, perhaps for a generation, so I am looking at the substance, I’m looking at the brighter opportunities that I think Britain has if we are outside the EU.
DM: Yes but you want to win the debate for your side …
DOMINIC RAAB: Absolutely and the way to win it …
DM: But the Prime Minister has taken a dent and he is leading the other team.
DOMINIC RAAB: And the way to win it is not to engage in the silliness around personalities or who said what, it is to talk about the substance and I want to make the positive case for Britain leaving the EU because I think it will be better for us in terms of controlling our laws, I think it will be better for jobs, quality of life, cost of living issues if we are free from the shackles of the EU and freer to trade more energetically with the emerging economies from Latin America to Asia.
DM: Okay and you are also writing in the papers this morning about the issues of security in particular and these figures that came from the EU’s own Border Agency last week about the number of people who they don’t really know about who have crossed into the EU and then … where are they?
DOMINIC RAAB: It is quite frightening and it isn’t me saying it, it’s Frontex which is the EU’s own external border agency. What they’ve shown is not only – we all know there is chaos at the borders, a huge number of people trying to enter illegally but what they are saying is that there are systemic failings in the EU member states checking those papers. So people have been registered wrongly based on fraudulent documents to come into the EU and the problem for us with that is that once you’re in and once you’re registered and once you’re documented, you are free to circulate and that creates a huge risk for the UK. Frontex themselves say there has been a 70% increase in people trying to enter the UK from the EU fraudulently in the last year alone and we’ve seen in the Sunday Times today …
DM: Yes, but they are picking them up aren’t they? We’ve obviously got the Channel there, we’re not in Schengen so it doesn’t really make a big difference.
DOMINIC RAAB: Oh it makes a massive difference because yes, you’re right, there are checks at the border but we have to rely on the documents issued by other EU member states and our ability to refuse people entry at the border has been massively restricted by EU rules and if you look at the case of Mohammed Abrini and there’s a lot in the papers today about him, this is the man who has been arrested for both the Paris and the Brussels terrorist attacks, someone who has been to Syria reportedly, someone who had a criminal record. He also came to the UK last year on a scouting mission including, we understand, taking photos of a football stadium. Why is a guy like that not being picked up at the border? The truth is, and this is what Frontex are saying, is that there are just systemic weaknesses which means we are importing more risk and the EU rules tie our hands in terms of trying to deal with it.
DM: So the border controls for go back in for EU nationals, which I think Mr Abrini is. Lord Lawson was talking this morning about the special arrangements which exist with the Irish Republic and citizens from Ireland have been able to vote in UK elections and things like that, he said those would remain apart from the fact – and this is a crucial issue – is that passport controls would have to go in. At the moment you are free to travel between the two countries without a passport.
DOMINIC RAAB: Well we would have to look very carefully at that, we’ve got a bilateral relationship with Ireland, a very close relationship. We have also got the history of the Troubles. All of these things could be handled very sensitively but I think …
DM: If Ireland obviously remains an EU member then EU nationals can travel and then come into the UK without a passport.
DOMINIC RAAB: If you are worried about border controls and security, and Frontex are, if you are worried about the effect of those EU rules then you couldn’t leave a back door without some kind either of checks there with any country or assurances in relation to the checks that they are conducting, obviously, otherwise everyone with ill will towards this country would go round that route. So the truth is that the broader point here is that if you want to have safe borders, if we want to have proper checks to deal with terrorism and broader crime, you have to come out of the EU.
DM: Okay, a quick last couple of thoughts. Of course this leaflet, government leaflet being delivered by postmen and women, we’re hearing some of them are complaining about having to do that. Do you think it’s bending the rules?
DOMINIC RAAB: Sorry, which is that?
DM: Setting out the government’s position on the EU.
DOMINIC RAAB: From the government. Look, I want to make the positive case, the Electoral Commission guidance makes it clear that the government shouldn’t be either spending resources or backing one or other side of this case and I think it’s a mistake but I also think the British people are not going to fall for Sir Humprehy-eque propaganda shoved down their throat. I think they understand there is something wrong with the EU but I also think, most importantly, and that’s what’s incumbent on people like me, is to point out the really positive brighter opportunities outside of the EU. I don't think we should cower or have a lack of confidence in standing on our own two feet and that’s the case I’m going to be making between now and 23rd June.
DM: Mr Raab, thank you very much indeed for your time. Dominic Raab there.
