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ANNA JONES: Well as you heard there, a video purporting to show the killing of US aid worker Peter Kassig by Islamic State in Syria has been posted on the internet.  The Shadow Foreign Secretary and the Labour MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Douglas Alexander, is here with me.  Douglas Alexander, this video hasn’t been authenticated at this stage but how worried are you?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Deeply worried.  If this video is authenticated, all of us in the United Kingdom will feel revulsion at this latest sickening murder.  It only emphasises the scale of the threat posed by ISIL and the importance of the international community working together to confront that threat.

AJ: Well yes, the scale of the threat you talk about, it is thought these killings have taken place in Syria of Western hostages, does this mean it is the time to extend air strikes into Syria?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well air strikes are happening in Syria …

AJ: Not by British forces.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Led by five Arab air forces and the United States air force. The coalition that has been brought together, including Britain, France and those five Arab air forces are taking different responsibilities within what is now a regional conflict and in that sense it is for the government to make its case as to any future involvement of British forces in relation to Syria and as the Labour party we would judge that on its merits.  We were keen and willing to support the British government in relation to Libya, we were unconvinced as to the case that was made a year ago in August in relation to action in Syria but we were convinced when the government came to us in the summer and made the case that there could be ground forces that could act in concert with air strikes in Iraq.  Alas we are still in a position, a couple of months on, where it remains unclear where the ground forces capable of confronting ISIL could be provided from, from within Syria.

AJ: A lot of people have pointed out there’s a nonsense in attacking Iraq but not Syria when it’s an organisation that crosses borders, why then – explain to us why you don’t want British forces involved in air strikes in Syria.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well because it is a co-ordinated coalition effort which means that if you were in circumstances where ISIL forces were crossing from the territory of Iraq into the territory of Syria, they would be vulnerable to air strikes not just from five Arab nations but also from the United States.  There is a completely co-ordinated and integrated command and control chain which involves not just the United States but regional powers but the real question is this: how do we most effectively confront ISIL that has to involve air strikes, that everybody who has studied this region knows it also has to involve ground forces and right now, a couple of months on from the vote in the House of Commons, it frankly remains unclear where the ground forces, the components that are available in Iraq through the Peshmerga, through the Iraqi security forces, can or will become available within Syria and that’s work that the international community needs to do.

AJ: This video, which again we should stress has not been authenticated, includes a direct threat on British soil.  Do you feel we are adequately protected in this country?  David Cameron has announced a package of measures just this week which beefs up that protection supposedly, including giving police more powers to take away people’s passports if they are considering travelling to join the Jihad and for those returning from the fight, to make it harder for them to get back into this country, restrictions placed on them.  Do you think we are adequately protected with those plans in place?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Of course that is a matter that needs to be kept under constant review but I would want to pay tribute this morning to the work of our intelligence agencies, the work of our police, the work of our border force who day in and out are seeking to keep the population of the United Kingdom safe, but given the nature of the changing and emerging threats that are confronting the United Kingdom, of course the responsible action for the government is to review these matters, depending on the threat, and bring forward to parliament any recommendations for changes that are required.

AJ: I want to move you on to the issue of Europe.  We’ve heard from Sir John Major this week talking about the issue of EU migration.  He says that British people are more likely to want out of the EU if European countries don’t help the UK limit the movement of people, do you back what he says, he is right?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well I listened to John Major’s interview this morning and I think it’s a tragedy for Britain that we are seeing more effective leadership from an ex-Conservative Prime Minister than from the present Conservative Prime Minister.  John Major offered a very elegant indictment of the present approach being taken by the Tory leadership in saying that they needed to dial down the rhetoric and dial up the diplomacy.  Of course there is reform and change that can be secured within Europe in relation to immigration and in relation to other issues.  I thought John Major made a convincing case that change is possible, the tragedy for the United Kingdom is that we have a Prime Minister today who is so weak in the face of his own backbenchers internally and the threat of UKIP externally, that he seems incapable of grasping that reform opportunity.

AJ: Well you say that and yet John Major and David Cameron essentially agree don’t they, they say that European immigration is a problem but the problem is though that you say reform can be done on the migration of people but can it really be given that it is a fundamental principle of the EU, what can you do about it?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well frankly, John Major and the present Conservative government don’t agree.  We’ve heard from the Foreign Secretary only this week that he is willing to walk away from the European Union and John Major was very clear this morning that that isn’t the approach that is going to yield the kind of changes that we want to see, whether it is longer transitional controls, whether it is changes to the benefits system so that you have to contribute before you can claim, whether it’s …

AJ: But what do you think?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Those are exactly the changes that I would like to see, longer transitional controls, changes to the benefits system so that you have to contribute before you can claim, changes to our internal rules for example to stop undercutting by foreign agency workers of employees here within the United Kingdom.  There are plenty of steps that can and should be being taken but alas with this government we are waiting more than two years after the Prime Minister’s speech on Europe for the detail and the substance of the reforms he wants to see.

AJ: Okay, so you’re saying it’s important to toughen up on immigration effectively.  Ed Miliband has said that the UK needs stronger controls on people coming here, we’re told that an immigration reform bill will be included in his first Queen’s Speech if he wins power next May, so what is Labour’s view then – is immigration a good thing or a bad thing?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:  Listen, immigration has benefited the United Kingdom immensely over centuries and I welcome the comments that we heard from John Major this morning, I wish we heard some of those comments from David Cameron, that the kind of anti-European, anti-immigrant, stop the world I want to get off, anti-politics of UKIP offers a false prospectus for our country but at the same time we do need to recognise that the scale of immigration we’ve seen in recent years has brought to bear particular pressures on particular communities and that’s why we need to see sensible reforms.  We need to strengthen the UK Border Force, we need to make sure there are longer transitional controls as I’ve described, we want to see changes to the benefits system, so you contribute before you can claim …

AJ: Okay, so what is an acceptable level of immigration?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:  Well clearly we are in a position where the government has said they wanted to get net migration down to the tens of thousands and the latest figures, as I recollect, are 243,000 net migration.

AJ: So what’s your figure?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well we don’t think it’s sensible to set a cap that you then …

AJ: But why not, because you might not be able to meet it?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Let me finish the sentence … set a cap that you then serially break like the Conservative party.  Instead you need to take a clearer view and say what type of immigration do we want?  For example we benefit immensely from high skilled migration coming in to support for example our National Health Service, so we would like to see the continued support for example of our National Health Service of high levels of skilled migration.  Similarly we think the United Kingdom benefits considerably from foreign students coming in, paying tuition fees and being able to contribute to British higher education.

AJ: Do you not think the British people would find it useful to get an idea of your objectives and your aims and setting a target would do exactly that?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well not if, as the Conservatives have done, you set a target and then every single year you break the target.  Instead migration of course has to be judged in the circumstances of the time, that’s why there is important work being taken as I say to change the benefit rules, to change the transitional controls but alas we’re not seeing that from the Conservative party.

AJ: What about promising the people a referendum on Europe then?  It is clearly something the people feel passionately about, you say reform is needed, why not give people a chance to express their own views?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: We think there should be a referendum at a point at which there is a significant transfer of power from Britain to Brussels.  What we don’t support is the approach that David Cameron has taken of an arbitrary timetable which is unsupported as far as I’m aware …

AJ: But can’t a referendum be a good thing, look at what happened in Scotland, it was marvellous …

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Let me finish my point. David Cameron is supporting a referendum on an arbitrary timetable of 2017.  What he is asking people to believe in the United Kingdom is that within 18 months of the General Election, if he were to be re-elected, he would manage to secure the unanimous support of Europe to the fundamental redesign of the European Union.  I’m afraid that’s nonsense, the British public know that, his Conservative backbenchers know that and that’s why we are not prepared to match him in that arbitrary deadline that he’s set.  On the other hand, if there is a transfer of sovereignty in the future, we do recognise there is a case for there to be an in/out referendum at that point and that’s the position that we’ve taken.

AJ: While I’ve got you here, I also want to raise the issue of Russia.  The G20 has obviously been focused on the movement, the apparent movement of troops into Ukraine.  David Cameron is warning of further sanctions, how concerned are you about the situation in Ukraine?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:  I think all of us should be very concerned about the situation in Ukraine and this is an issue in which I think there is a bipartisan approach.  I welcome the fact that there was a robust exchange between David Cameron and Vladimir Putin in Brisbane yesterday but I think there is now an opportunity for David Cameron’s Foreign Secretary, Philip Hammond, to translate David Cameron’s words into actions tomorrow.  There is a meeting of European foreign ministers this week and I hope at that meeting there will be consideration given to the extending of what is called Tier Three sanctions against Russia by the European Union.  There has been co-ordinated work by the United States and Europe in recent months but frankly Russia does face a choice and given the latest evidence that is emerging from Eastern Ukraine in terms of heavy weapons being moved across the border from Russia into Donetsk and the surrounding area, I do think this is an important moment of reckoning for Europe to continue to show the strength of resolve that’s been shown in recent months.

AJ: Douglas Alexander, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, thank you very much indeed.