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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: David Cameron will continue his charm offensive with European leaders this week, he’s trying to win support for EU reforms ahead of that in/out referendum to be held before the end of 2017 but will he be able to get enough change to persuade Eurosceptics within his own party?  Well Dr Liam Fox is a Conservative MP, a former Defence Secretary of course and he joins me now, a very good morning to you Dr Fox.  So can we get some handle on this in terms of concrete achievements, what must Mr Cameron get for you not to vote no?

LIAM FOX:  What I want is for us to get as close as we can to the concept of the Common Market that we joined. I think people want us to have an economic relationship with our European partners, they understand the advantages in trade for example but they don’t want interference in other areas of national life.   They don’t want a common foreign policy, they don’t want a common security policy, we need to get back from some of these things.  

DM: You mean getting official opt-outs on areas like that, vetoes?

LIAM FOX:  There are two things.  First that we have to give the Prime Minister time to set out exactly the areas that he wants to renegotiate and that’s what we’ll get presumably this week with the Queen’s Speech and then we have to give him time to see how much he is able to achieve and what I find very bizarre when we go to have a referendum in probably two years’ time, is that people are already saying we must vote for it whatever we renegotiate or we must leave whatever we renegotiate.  

DM: I wanted to ask you about that, you must be heartened by the fact that the Labour party have come round to supporting a referendum, we were talking to Pat McFadden there, Europe spokesperson, it is more or less a yes come what may.  

LIAM FOX:  Well first of all I thought it was bizarre that Ed Miliband didn’t come to offer a referendum because it looked like arrogance and simply disregarding the will of a lot of voters and I think he paid a price for that but I think the idea that you go into any negotiation, national or otherwise, by saying I am going to work very hard for what I want and if I don’t get it, well I’ll stay anyway.  It does not sound like a very firm negotiating position.  It’s not threatening to leave but it is making very clear that we are taking seriously this renegotiation on behalf not just of the United Kingdom – and I think this is the point people are missing – this is on behalf of the whole of the rest of the European Union.  We want to see reforms in Europe because we believe it is good for Europe and not just good for Britain.

DM: Okay and for a lot of the voters you refer to, for a lot of people this comes down to migration within Europe, the free movement of peoples.  What do you want to see Mr Cameron get on that?

LIAM FOX:  You might be right but I don’t agree that that is the case here.  I think that …  

DM: But you must have heard that on the doorsteps, you have just been campaigning for weeks and months.   

LIAM FOX:  It’s a key issue but people do seem to forget that the majority of our migration in this country comes from outside the European Union and we need to get control of that but …

DM: The latest figures showed that, didn’t they?

LIAM FOX:  The latest figures show that still the majority of our migration in Britain comes from outside the European Union and it’s growing so that’s something we can already do something about and that we should be doing more on.  When we have got the issue of the European issue, yes that’s one of the issues but it is not just about migration nor is it just about the relationship of the City of London, it’s a question of sovereignty, it’s a question that are the laws that we make in Britain being ultimately determined in our own courts and are our own laws going to be sovereign?

DM: So you would not be concerned if Mr Cameron comes back and he is going to see Angela Merkel amongst others during the course of the week, if he comes back and says look, there really is no movement, there is no wriggle room, there is no leeway on free movement, transitional controls or anything like that, that’s a red line for my European co-leaders, we can’t do anything about that – you wouldn’t be concerned?

LIAM FOX:  Well I would like to see us getting control of our borders both for EU and non-EU migrants but for me it is still an issue of sovereignty, it is a question of the direction of travel of Europe, that it is moving inexorably towards ever closer union and we know what the logical end point of that is.  You have got the European Union trying to get more and more of the elements of statehood, of a single foreign office and they are now asking for a single security service, they talk more and more about European armed forces.  We need to make it very clear to them that is not the destiny that we see for the United Kingdom.

DM: But caught up in this whole issue of sovereignty and control is the issue of the Human Rights Act, not anything to do at all with membership of the European Union but in many people’s minds it is kind of linked, it is a similar issue.  Now we know that there are some within your party who are now saying listen, if we pull out of the Human Rights Act, the European Convention on Human Rights, we’re going to resign.  

LIAM FOX:  Well for me first of all it is a similar issue, it is the issue of sovereignty and I believe that those decisions should be adjudicated by the British courts and not by a foreign court but we were elected as Conservatives  to govern as Conservatives and not to carry on the work of the coalition.  It is very clearly in our manifesto that we will have a British Bill of Rights that will ultimately be determined by the Supreme Court in the United Kingdom and not anyone else and I find it utterly bizarre that barely two weeks after coming into the House of Commons we have people who are saying I am going to jettison my manifesto on which I was elected.  It is very clear that that’s the commitment that the Prime Minister and the Conservative party gave.  

DM: Is this one of the biggest issues for you then in terms of what Mr Cameron does?  Of course he doesn’t have to negotiate with other European leaders like this but it is exceptionally complicated to unravel all the legalese.  

LIAM FOX:  It might be complicated to unravel, that’s not a reason to not do it.  We’ve given a clear commitment that we believe the adjudication on human rights issues should like with the Supreme Court in the UK and not in Strasbourg and that seems to me to be a very simple and measureable way in which we can show the determination that we’ve got to govern as a Conservative government.  

DM: You mentioned the manifesto and the Queen’s Speech, not in the manifesto is something you know an awful lot about, this issue of defence spending and a commitment to spend 2% of GDP, is that something you would like to see there?

LIAM FOX:  I would like to have a commitment to maintain what we have already signed up to as part of our NATO membership and we need to move this debate away from simply the finances onto what the risks are.  We have got a very aggressive expansionist Russia which is redrawing the borders of Europe by force.  We’ve got the threat of ISIS totally destabilising the Middle East at the present time and defence is unlike most other things in government, it is not discretionary.  The government will have to spend what it needs to spend for our national security because the first duty of government is the protection of its citizens and I think that’s where we need to look.  You don’t begin with a number and see how much defence you can buy with it, we have to understand the financial constraints but ultimately we have to base our defence policy and our defence spending on the risks that our country faces.  

DM: Okay, something that will be in the Queen’s Speech, an awful lot of course about the further powers that should be given to Scotland after that remarkable showing by the Scottish National Party in the general election.  Are you amongst those that say, particularly within your party, well okay, we will devolve as many financial and fiscal powers as we possibly can and then you run that country, within the UK but there’s your money, off you go, perhaps get rid of the Barnet Formula?

LIAM FOX: Well certainly fiscal autonomy is something that we need to consider.  There are all sorts of negatives that go with that, not least that the national wealth of Scotland might vary to a degree that might become very difficult within that and of course Scotland benefits from being in the United Kingdom simply because we are able to absorb those ebbs and flows in finances so that would be a big step for Scotland to take.  Along with that you have to have the other half of the equation which is not just what Scotland gets but what England gets and many of us feel that if we have a half-baked constitutional settlement which gives devolution to Scotland and Wales, then you need to counterbalance it.

DM: What do you think England should get?

LIAM FOX: I would like to see that when it comes to making laws on issues that are devolved to Scotland or Wales, that only those who represent seats in England are able to vote on those issues.  I think that is a fair and reasonable balance to strike.

DM: So barred, all within the chamber of the House of Commons, that can be the forum, you don’t need any regional parliaments or assemblies or anything like that?

LIAM FOX: I think the last thing we need is more parliaments with more civil servants and more politicians, I’d have thought that was the last thing the public wants.  We have got to find a way to make that work within the constitutional constraints that we have and I think it is entirely possible for us to do so but what you have to show is that there is balance within the United Kingdom because you cannot have a chronically imbalanced constitution and expect it to survive intact.

DM: Okay, last question on fox hunting, free votes on that, do you want to see that in the Queen’s Speech?

LIAM FOX: I’d like to see a free vote on it.  Given the balance of the House of Commons I think you’ll have pretty much all the opposition parties voting against and a substantial number of Conservatives who would vote against so I don’t see it happening but again we gave a commitment that we would have a free vote and I think that we should have a free vote.

DM: I do have another last, last question, sorry about that.  Keying into your expertise as a former Defence Secretary, Lord Dannatt with the threat of ISIS, taking Ramadi and making major headway of course in Syria as well Lord Dannatt saying perhaps now it is time for boots on the ground.  

LIAM FOX: I think for that to happen you would have to have first of all the United States as the prime mover, I think that is out of the question under the Obama presidency.   I think even if he were to be persuaded that it was the right thing to do, and I’m not sure at all that he is, then I don’t think he would be willing in the last year or so of his presidency to have that as his legacy given that he came to office saying he was going to withdraw America.   The second part of that is that all these countries in the Middle East and beyond who say they don’t want American influence in the Middle East, are now really changing their tune and saying it’s not working, maybe it’s time for America to re-engage.  Well maybe it is time for the rest of us to start putting our money where our mouth is and having better collective security.

DM: Dr Fox, thank you very much indeed, Liam Fox there.