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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now amongst all the discussions and decisions about Brexit the House of Lords is set to review the implications of Brexit for Gibraltar this week.  96% of those on the island voted to remain and its Chief Minister, Fabian Picardo, has been exploring options to try to keep the territory in the European Union.  He’s in London this week and as you can see, joins me now, a very good morning and thank you very much indeed for joining us, Chief Minister.  So is your ambition to keep Gibraltar in the European Union or to keep it in the single market?

FABIAN PICARDO: Gibraltar accepts the verdict of the British people in the referendum.  We voted as part of that franchise, 96% of us voted to stay but the balance of the British people decided to leave so in the same way as if one constituency goes Labour but there is a Conservative government, you have to accept the full result.  

DM: So it’s the single market you want?

FABIAN PICARDO: So it’s the single market that we want but also freedom of movement in the sense that it applies to Gibraltar where we are talking really about the liberty to travel in and out of Gibraltar in the day.  So freedom of movement in Gibraltar doesn’t imply immigration like it implies in the United Kingdom, we are two and a half miles by one square mile and if I can take issue with one of the things you said, we’re not an island and …

DM: That’s a very good point, I was thinking that myself.

FABIAN PICARDO: That’s why the freedom of movement is so relevant because of the flow across the frontier with Spain which is one of only two land frontiers that the United Kingdom has with the continent of Europe, one is on the island of Ireland and the other down in Gibraltar and southern Spain.

DM: So to that end you have been having discussions, you mentioned Ireland and we know Scotland’s attitude towards Brexit, you have been having discussions with other parts of the United Kingdom about how you might be able to keep those freedoms.

FABIAN PICARDO: We have because I think we have to accept and it’s right that the Prime Minister should insist, that there is going to be one negotiation, there is going to be one United Kingdom approach to this but of course the United Kingdom is made up of various nations, it’s made up of different industries, it’s made up of different interest groups so that negotiation is going to result in one UK deal but a UK deal that is not going to be binary, it is going to be multi-faceted and it has got to be differentiated for different industries and for different parts of the UK – the deal for Northern Ireland might be slightly different to the deal for the rest of the UK because of the frontier.  For Gibraltar we have to have that multi-faceted deal provide the facet that is applicable to us.

DM: You draw those parallels in terms of the land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and between Spain and Gibraltar but there is a big difference here isn’t there, is that the Republic of Ireland is no longer hostile to the existence of Northern Ireland.  Now Spain doesn’t think like that, we know after their immediate reaction to the Brexit result they saw that then as moving it a step closer, as the put it, to getting the Spanish flag planted on the Rock of Gibraltar.  

FABIAN PICARDO: Well some parts of the Spanish government may see it that way but the former Spanish Foreign Minister, Senor Jose Manuel Garcia Mariario said that this was an opportunity for joint sovereignty and that he would plant his flag on Gibraltar.  I think we’ve seen a change of tone in Spain, I think it’s time for calm reflection, for discretion and for dialogue between Gibraltar and Spain and the United Kingdom on these issues but not on the European aspects of the deal.  This is an issue where there is going to be one UK negotiation with the remaining 27, with the institutions and if you look at what is happening in Andalucia, the number of social and trade union voices and even the government of Andalucia, the Junta de Andalucia, who are saying that Gibraltar is an important engine of the economy in that region, we provide 10,000 jobs, a quarter of the GDP of the area around Gibraltar and we are the second biggest employer in Andalucia, only after the Spanish regional government which is the Junta.  So there is a very good reason for there to be a sensible deal …

DM: So you want them to feed that back to Madrid but haven’t the tensions been rising?  There were more incidents in November in the harbour.

FABIAN PICARDO: Well there were on the waters and that’s very disappointing because I think the United Kingdom, Spain and Gibraltar should regard themselves as allies.  If Spain wants to raise a dispute as to the extent of British/Gibraltar territorial waters, the place to do it is in the International Court for the Law of the Sea, they should not be doing it playing out on the water, risking people’s lives.  Gibraltar and the United Kingdom remain very clear about the jurisdiction of our waters and we encourage that Spain should resolve any dispute it may have in that proper forum but let’s try and avoid those tensions in the future, let’s try and talk about the things that matter to people in the region.  Today we create 10,000 jobs, I say that if we were working together and spending the energy that we spend fighting each other in promoting the region around the world, we’d created 100,000 jobs in a region that has so much unemployment, it would really benefit from it.

DM: But people are going to say, and just looking at the geography, there are you going round talking to the Scots and the Northern Irish and whoever else but looking at the geography and your relationship with the Spanish, isn’t there an easier solution, a simpler solution – joint sovereignty?  That would certainly please the Spanish but would it please the population of Gibraltar and then those flows of people two ways across the border, that becomes simple?

FABIAN PICARDO: Certainly not and it’s not going to happen.

DM: But why not?

FABIAN PICARDO: Well let’s talk about referenda.  We didn’t just have one referendum a few months ago on the issue of Europe, we had a referendum ten years ago in Gibraltar on the issue of joint sovereignty and the people of Gibraltar voted even more overwhelmingly to reject that concept because we want to remain British because that’s our choice.  Now if you look at the wars that Britain has fought in the last 30 years, in my lifetime, in the Falklands, in the Middle East, it’s all about people’s right to decide.  The blood of British servicemen has been built on that principle, the principle of democracy. If the people of Gibraltar decide that they want to accept Spanish sovereignty then that is a matter for the people of Gibraltar, I’ll be the last one arguing that we are to remain British and I think there will be many more with me.  I think the result of another referendum will produce the same result so what we need to do is to forget sovereignty and to start working together on a deal that preserves the different jurisdictions – and it’s not just me saying that, the Spanish unions and the Junta de Andalucia say that.

DM: I get that but do you fully then trust the negotiating team coming out of London who, when they do finally engage with the other 27 members of the EU, if it comes to the Spaniards holding out for this deal, for joint sovereignty, for what’s seen as a good deal by Downing Street, if it comes down to joint sovereignty for Gibraltar, they might throw you to the wolves.

FABIAN PICARDO: I’ve been working with Theresa May for five years now, when she was at the Home Office I did a lot of work with her there, I’ve been working with her as Prime Minister, I was I think her first meeting after she took over from David Cameron. I’ve been working with Boris Johnson, with Robin Walking and with Sir Alan Duncan and all of them are fully engaged with Gibraltar.  I am not just talking to all of the nations of the United Kingdom, I am also talking to people in Downing Street and in King Charles Street about what the negotiation needs to mean for Gibraltar.  They haven’t let me down before and I don't think they are going to let the people of Gibraltar down.  They are committed to Gibraltar and its part in this process.

DM: Chief Minister, thank you very indeed, very good to see you.  Fabian Picardo there, Chief Minister of Gibraltar.