DERMOT MURNAGHAN: As you have been hearing and seeing, British combat operations in Afghanistan are formally over and the Union flag has been lowered at Camp Bastion for the last time so what is Britain’s legacy in Afghanistan and will we ever be able to launch such an operation on the same scale again?  I am joined now from Hungerford in Berkshire by General Sir Mike Jackson who was of course Head of the Army from 2003 to 2006 and a very good morning to you, Sir Mike.  Your thoughts first of all on the scale of the British sacrifice in Afghanistan, the 453 who lost their lives, so many more injured, what has been achieved?

GENERAL SIR MIKE JACKSON: Well I think first of all one must mark that casualty bill which nobody would wish to have but soldiering can be a hard game and people do take risks and suffer accordingly on occasion.  As to Afghanistan now compared to Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, I think it is a very different place.  Then it was ruled by the Taliban, girls did not go to school, there was a brutal system of so-called justice and I think Afghanistan today is a very different place and one could emphasise there perhaps also the recent change in the political leadership of Afghanistan.  Now is it perfect?  No, of course it isn’t.  Has it a long way to go?  I suspect it has but to answer your question, I think it is a better place.

DM: But Sir Mike the fear is, three or four years ago people were saying similar things about Iraq as the draw down, the withdrawal took place there, that there was a fledgling democracy, it seemed to be becoming to be inclusive and in particular that the armed forces were well trained and capable and we’ve seen what’s happened subsequently.  

GENERAL SIR MIKE JACKSON: Yes, I think the parallel that you’re attempting to draw there directly between Iraq and Afghanistan isn’t a very firm one.  You are right to say of course that the confidence that we had got Iraq to a stable place has not been borne out by recent events.  I hope that won’t be the case in Afghanistan but there is a limit to what can be achieved. The West can’t stay forever in Afghanistan, they wouldn’t want that and nor do we.  What we want, what we seek is a stable Afghanistan with a broadly representative government with the rule of law.  Now these are easy things to say but they are not of themselves military objectives, they are part of a much broader strategy.  I think we have done more than our duty by Afghanistan in terms of money, in terms of sacrifice of our soldiers, in terms of setting up institutions but there is a limit to what ‘outsiders’ – and I put that in inverted commas here – there is limit to what can be done and at the end of the day it must be for the Afghan people themselves now to seek that better future that I briefly described.

DM: Talking about limits, Sir Mike, you were head of the Army in that critical period of 2003 to 2006 when of course the Iraqi operation came along in parallel, in tandem to Afghanistan.  There is no way now given the current state of the army, the armed forces in general, that similar operations with all their faults, their flaws and of course their successes, there is no way now that could be carried out.

GENERAL SIR MIKE JACKSON: Well I think that’s a rather sweeping statement.  It is true that the army is heading for a figure of 82,000, when I was Chief of the General Staff, the head of the Army, it was 102,000 so a 20% reduction over some eight to ten years.  Now that’s not something that I applaud, please don’t misunderstand me but a well-equipped and trained army, a highly experienced army of 82,000 is I still think a potent force in a troubled world.  I note comment in today’s newspapers that already there is talk of further reductions but I think that is kite flying at the moment, 82,000 is a pretty small army even for a rich country such as ourselves so don’t jump from one side of the pendulum to the other, that because of that we are now virtually impotent, that would be an absurd proposition.  We have a very capable army, albeit a small one.  

DM: So if asked by the government, the army would be well capable of carrying out some serious operations in Iraq, if that were asked for?    

GENERAL SIR MIKE JACKSON: Yes.  I mean we have on the horizon, the pretty immediate horizon now, an army which for the first time since the end of the Cold War which we should remind ourselves is getting on for a quarter of a century, nearly 25 years, we have an army which is not committed to large ongoing operations so yes, that capability is there if and when the British government, whoever that may be in the future, come to the conclusion that military force is required in pursuit of whatever political objectives.  

DM: General thank you very much indeed for your time.  General Sir Mike Jackson there.