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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now his personal finances were not the only thing that Mr Cameron defended this week.  The Prime Minister made no apology, he said, for spending £9 million of tax payers money on pro-EU leaflets that are being sent to 27 million households right across the UK.  The Labour MP and Chair of the Vote Leave campaign group Gisela Stuart, joins me live now, she’s in Worcester and a very good morning to you Ms Stuart.  Is this double joy for you, the Prime Minister’s troubles here with his personal finances, here we have a Conservative Prime Minister taking a dent to his trust and he is of course leading the Remain campaign.  

GISELA STUART: It’s never a course of joy when the Prime Minister of the country shows lack of judgement and I think with the tax affairs it was the fact that it took him five attempts to finally be clear about his own arrangements, that is the problem.  Also when we go to the referendum, I think it is really important that people when they are given a once in a generation chance to make a decision, they should feel they are making that decision on the basis of proper information so it saddens me, both these events.  

DM: But on the issue of trust and a lot of the EU referendum will come down to that, the Prime Minister came back from his renegotiations with Brussels and said in effect, ‘Trust me, this is a good deal’.  Now on other issues, namely on this, it seems according to the polling some people no longer trust him.  

GISELA STUART: Indeed and he came back from the negotiations and he continues to talk about a reformed European Union.  I have no evidence at all that as a result of his negotiations the European Union has changed one iota or indeed reformed itself and I think the difficulty he has created for himself is we quite rightly have a framework of the Electoral Commission that is to oversee the fair and proper conduct of this referendum. Whilst he is right when he says the government has a position in that, it should not abuse its position of authority and I think he has undermined not just his own judgement but I think he has also abused the machinery of government in this process and that can’t be good for democracy and therefore can’t be good for us. I very much hope that by 23rd June, people like me will have made a positive case that we are better out of the European Union and we will get that decision.  

DM: That’s the Conservative leader, what about your leader?  Are you glad, we’ve had your colleague Ben Bradshaw on the programme just now criticising Mr Corbyn for not doing enough to campaign on the Remain side, you must be glad about that?

GISELA STUART: I think both the major party leaders face a difficulty that the decision on the European Union does not fall clearly along party political lines and that always means the leaders have to take a position not only where they express their own views but also have to keep an eye on the fact that after the referendum they want to keep their parties together.  That’s why I would urge everyone when they go into the 23rd June, look to the sides of argument, really make your own choice.  One of the things which I find extraordinary which is neither the Labour party nor the Conservative party are even trying to defend the EU as an institution.  It’s an institution that requires and demands that it has got legal superiority, that it makes decisions above us.  They all still talk just about membership benefits or disadvantages, let’s hear it for defending the institution and then I’m very happy to say it is not in our interests to be part of it.  

DM: You of course, as you say this isn’t a cross-party, it’s not a party issue, it cuts across parties and of course Nigel Farage amongst other is campaigning to leave, as we would expect, the European Union.  Last week you were criticising so-called health tourism and the billions it costs the NHS, do you agree with Mr Farage – you will remember this from one of the leaders’ debates before last year’s general election – when he said there are 7000 diagnoses every year in this country of people who are HIV positive, 60% of them are not British nationals.  

GISELA STUART: I think this is a very unwise choice of words and also that is not at the heart of the argument. At the heart of the argument which I made last week about the exchange of money for people treated and treatment received in the United Kingdom is that there is an imbalance, that we paid out more than we received and it is simply the accounting method by which we recoup money was wrong.  I don't think we will win this debate or even fight this debate on demonising any group or another, this is about membership in a supranational institution where we cede what is in our best interests and the consequences of some of this will show themselves in areas like the NHS but I really would not pick on any particular group of patients.  

DM: And what about this leaflet that is being sent to an estimated 27 million households from the government laying out the reasons to remain within the European Union, back to what we were talking about the Prime Minister and trust, he is of course the face of the government, do you think people will read it with a raised eyebrow?

GISELA STUART: I mean there are two issues here.  One is during the course of the next week is the Electoral Commission will officially designate one or other group to be the official in or out groups and we will then be allowed to raise, to raise from private funds and donations up to £7 million to spend on the campaign. The government has produced in one mailshot, has spent more than either the in or out campaign are allowed to spend, they have used taxpayers money to do it and they have produced a very one-sided case.  Now I do accept the argument that the government is taking the position that they think we are better to remain, they should then justify the balance on which they made the decision. The leaflet itself looks official, it makes a case which is dubious at best and again I think it undermines the trust in our institutions and wastes taxpayers money and that’s not good.  

DM: Okay, Gisela Stuart, thank you very much indeed, chair there of the Vote Leave campaign.