DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Cast your mind back just a month to just before the Scottish Independence referendum and the panic that the yes campaign was on course to win.  Westminster politicians promised extensive new powers to Scotland if it voted to stay within the Union – well now for the hard part, the detail and delivery.  The former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, has become the leading voice amongst Scottish Unionist politicians and he says he is determined that the promises made to the people of Scotland at the time are now delivered.  Well Gordon Brown joins me now from Edinburgh, a very good morning to you Mr Brown.  Do you feel that you have reached or are close to consensus amongst Labour, Conservative and the Liberal Democrats about what precise powers will be delivered and offered to Scotland?

GORDON BROWN: We’ve got an agreement on the timetable so powers will have to be delivered with a draft Bill in January.  What we’ve now got to get agreement on is all the powers.  I think there’s a general agreement about the devolution of more tax powers, about the devolution of housing benefit, of social care powers for attendance allowance – I’m saying to the Conservatives this morning they’ve got to get more radical on the powers because they should include what Labour has proposed and the Liberals have proposed, that’s the Work Programme, infrastructure investment, transports and the rail services, it’s got to include the environment and land use and it’s got to include the enforcement of employment health and safety  and other equalities legislation.  Now if we did that I think we could get an agreement  on very extensive powers, a powerhouse parliament and I think we could move forward pretty quickly accepting that we want to stay part of the United Kingdom.

DM: So you see the Conservatives as foot dragging?

GORDON BROWN: I think on this particular issue, the set of powers, they are making a mistake, they are not radical enough.  I think they’ve got to get real however on another issue which is income tax.  It just does not make sense to devolve 100% of income tax to the Scottish parliament which would mean for example that the UK services that Scotland gets like pensions, Scotland would not be contributing any income tax and it doesn’t make sense to do what Mr Cameron suggested the day after the referendum, that Scottish MPs would be second class citizens at Westminster, unable to vote on certain key issues like the income tax rate.  So the Conservatives have got it wrong, I think they are 100% wrong on this 100% devolution of income tax.  They’ve got to understand that their measures are a gift to the separatists, they would play into the hands of the nationalist party, they would drive a wedge between Scotland and England and make the constitution unstable and I shall be saying this during the course of this week when I put forward my own proposals about how we can solve this problem.  

DM: Would you go further and say the Conservatives are playing a political game here to embarrass Labour with all those Scottish MPs, to try to neutralise them when it comes to voting in the House of Commons?

GORDON BROWN: I would like us all to rise above party advantage and indeed above driving a wedge between Scotland and England.  You see in the United Kingdom England is about 84% of the United Kingdom, Scotland is 8%, Wales is 5%, Northern Ireland is 3% and you have got to find a fair distribution of power that recognises the majority rule but also recognises the minorities and that they have special needs that have to be met.  Now if you do that, I think you’ll come up with a solution that does not include the 100% devolution of income tax but perhaps 75% and you will not withdraw Scottish Members of Parliament and make them second class citizens at Westminster.  I think the Conservatives have got to realise what is at stake here is the future of the United Kingdom.  It is still fragile, there are lots of grievances as a result of what Mr Cameron said the day after the referendum.  I think he did so in an unstatesmanlike way and I think he should regret what he did.  You cannot at one and the same time promise Scotland something on a Tuesday and then change the offer the day after the referendum on the Friday and I think the Conservatives have got to think again about playing fast and loose with the constitution.

DM: But they also made offers to the English and others and to English cities, do you feel that these processes should operate in tandem as we’ve heard again today from William Hague, the former Foreign Secretary, saying that English votes on English laws must be a process that continues in the same manner as that which is applying to Scotland?

GORDON BROWN: Dermot, let’s just be clear what is being proposed here.  First of all I support the devolution of power to the English regions and to the cities, that is a great thing because power can be devolved to where decisions can best be made so we want to see more decentralisation, more powers to the Welsh Assembly and we want to see devolution if you like all round in the United Kingdom.  But what does English votes to English law mean in practice?  It means simply this – restricting the rights of Scottish Members of Parliament to be first class citizens at Westminster and if the Conservatives pursue that then it’s very difficult to see how you can have one United Kingdom and two classes of representation.  That in my view would be a big mistake.  There are things that you can do, there are amendments that you can make to the committee system and there are various other changes that you can consider but once on big issues Scottish MPs don’t have the same right to vote as English or Welsh or Northern Irish MPs, I think you’ve got a problem about the unity of the United Kingdom and that’s why I say don’t play fast and loose with the constitution.  Get real about what’s necessary to keep the Union together, we did win a decisive vote at 55%  in the referendum but things are still fragile and, you know, nations can be lost by accident, Unions can disintegrate because mistakes are made and I would not like to think that the Conservative government is going to make mistakes that would imperil the future of the Union.

DM: I asked you about the politics about all this and I referred to the number of Scottish Labour MPs and this is kind of related isn’t it?  We’ve seen SNP membership we’re told shoot up since the referendum and a lot of the pollsters are now saying the SNP pose a big threat to many, many Labour seats in Scotland. If there is backsliding, as I put it, on this issue do you feel the Scottish voters come the general election may take it out on the Labour party?

GORDON BROWN: Well there is no backsliding on the part of me or the Labour party, we are very clear about the powerhouse parliament we wanted to create.  We said it before the referendum, we keep to our promises after the referendum.  Indeed there is a petition signed by 110,000 Scots demanding that the government holds to the powers that were talked about during the referendum campaign but if you’re thinking about the future of Britain, the future of the United Kingdom as a whole, you’ve got to rise above political party advantage.  You’ve got to look at what is going to be in the interest of harmony and stability, what is a fair distribution of power and we have got this unique system in Britain where England is 84% of the Union but the other members of the Union have got rights and as minority nations in the United Kingdom have got to have rights and we’ve managed to do so something quite unique in the Union as well and we’ve got UK pensions, we’ve got UK healthcare, we’ve got UK unemployment benefit.  We share our services like we do in defence and security and the Scottish National Party in their submission to this Commission that has been set up to look at powers, they want to break all that and an end to the UK pension, an end to the UK welfare state, an end to the UK unemployment benefit and help that is given when regions and nations are in difficulty and I think we’ve got to think about what is the most radical distribution of powers we can have but with the context that people have voted to stay part of the United Kingdom and I’m determined to do everything in my power to make sure that we keep our promises as part of the United Kingdom.

DM: Just a little bit more about the detail in your mind, Mr Brown, you are saying you reckon round about 75% of income tax collected and distributed by the Scottish parliament, what about VAT and Corporation Tax?

GORDON BROWN: Yes, I think you could assign about 50% of VAT revenues, that means if the Scottish economy started to do better it would get more VAT revenues.  I think on income tax you don’t do 100% of income tax because then Scottish taxpayers would not contribute to the UK services but you don’t do Corporation Tax I think because you don’t want to have a divide and rule across the United Kingdom where each region and nation is competing to lower the Corporation Tax rate to attract firms into the country.  I think the idea of one Corporation Tax rate is important for maintaining the unity of the United Kingdom and stopping this dog eats dog competition between the regions and nations.  But my proposals add up to 54% of the spending of the Scottish parliament raised by revenue that it has itself and do you know, there is no Federal system in the world that I know of where 100% of income tax is devolved to the regional level or the national level from the central state.

DM: And I asked Mr Brown about the threat to the Labour party from the SNP, what about the threat to the Labour party to UKIP as we saw in the Heywood and Middleton by-election?  How do you think Labour should address this core issue of immigration?

GORDON BROWN: Well Ed Miliband has got a very good article in the Observer today where he talks about these issues and if you’ll forgive me, I don't think it helps for people to be armchair spectators sitting and making comments on every single issue.  I’ve concentrated on something which, after a period of reflection courtesy of the British electorate where we’ve been out of power for four years, I’ve been able to think about what we should do about the future of the United Kingdom, about how we can hold Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland together and do you know, I was impressed during the referendum campaign how many English people were tweeting and going to meetings and talking about the importance of the Union staying together so whatever the forces bringing about the rise of UKIP I still think there is a huge support for keeping the whole of the United Kingdom together and that’s what I’m going to concentrate my energies on talking about and giving views where I think I can make a difference.

DM: Yes, I know, but you want to see the Labour party re-elected as a UK government, you presumably want to be a part of that and as part of that process, having held the position yourself …

GORDON BROWN: No, I don’t want to be … I think you misunderstood me Dermot, I said I’m not coming back into frontline politics, I’m not interested in a position on any front bench and I’m not proposing to take a bigger role in the future. I joined the referendum campaign on the no side because I could see the threat to the prospects of my children and the children of Scotland.  We were making a decision that was not just for one election but was for all time and I felt I had a duty to come back into politics to talk about what I thought was important for the sake of the future of our country but I’m not proposing, as you suggest, to come back into frontline politics and I want to give all the support I can to Ed Miliband and his leadership of the Labour party and I believe he wants to concentrate on the big issues and it’s for him to talk for the Labour party, not for me.

DM: No, I think you misunderstand me, Mr Brown.  All I was suggesting was that having heard no announcement to the contrary was that you would stand again to become a Labour MP and hopefully in your view part of a Labour party that is governing for the whole of the UK and I wanted to ask you, having held the position yourself, what advice would you give to Mr Miliband about appearing, before the general election, prime ministerial.

GORDON BROWN: I think I misunderstood you obviously but you said I wanted to be part of a future Labour government.  I’m not proposing to do that and I’m not coming back into frontline politics, I’m too old to be the comeback kid as I’ve said before and I’m too young to be an elder statesman and I don’t propose to do that.  As far as the future of the Labour party is concerned, it is in good hands with young leaders who have got a very clear idea of what they want to achieve.  They focus people’s attention on the cost of living and on the perils of an economic recovery that doesn’t yield the rise in standards of living that people want and of course that in itself is an answer to many of the worries that people have who are expressing concern when they are voting for UKIP and other parties and I know Ed Miliband has talked today about his policies on immigration and I will support him in what he says.

DM: Okay Mr Brown, great to talk to you, thank you very much indeed.  Gordon Brown there.  

GORDON BROWN: Thank you.