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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, the Labour party has been urged this weekend to redouble it’s EU campaigning or risk Britain leaving the European Union.  With deep divisions within the Conservative party and accusations of Project Fear, it is reported this morning that even Number 10 wants Labour to step up a gear.  I am joined now by the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who is in North Queensferry but first let’s take a look at clip from the video he made this week stating the positive case for remaining in Europe.  

GORDON BROWN: And we shouldn’t just be a member of the European Union, we should be a leader of the European Union.  Soon we will be the strongest economy in Europe, the smaller nations look to us for leadership and what message would we send to the rest of the world if we the British people, the most internationally minded of all, were to walk away from our nearest neighbours?  We should be leading in Europe and not leaving it.  

DM: Well now, a very good morning to you, Mr Brown and this issue of how hard the current Labour leadership are campaigning, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell saying today that Labour’s voice has been squeezed out of the media because of the punch up in the Conservative party, do you agree?  

GORDON BROWN: I think that’s true, the focus of the media has been on what they call a blue versus blue, Conservatives fighting Conservatives but there is only ten days to go, the people of this country realise this is an important decision, they want to know both the fears and the worries about leaving but they also want to know the positive reasons for staying and what I tried to do in that video is to show that Britain has always done best in Europe when it has been a leader.  Britain led Europe out of war, we shaped the Convention of Human Rights, we helped Eastern Europe escape from Soviet totalitarianism, we led the single market which is responsible for millions of jobs and now I think we’ve got to set out the agenda for the future, how are we going to lead in the future in jobs, higher standards of living, fairness in taxation, security against terrorism, all these issues and I think in the next ten days the motto should be of at least the Labour campaigners not to leave the European Union but to lead it and to show how they will do it to make people’s lives better off.  

DM: So you want a much more positive vision of UK membership of the European Union.  Are you talking about sitting in a triumvirate there with the French and the Germans?  

GORDON BROWN: What I am saying is that Labour has been trying to get this positive message across, it is time now for us to step our efforts up in the next ten days.  I think the agenda that I am going to outline tomorrow in a speech will be one that European leaders can support as well, I hope that the Conservative government can support the agenda but people need to know where are the jobs going to come from, how Europe can contribute, how the standards of living are going to improve, fuel bills for example can come down. They want to know how Europe can help get fairness in taxation and how we can be more secure and there are detailed proposals that we have as a Labour party, and I have been talking to Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, their teams about this and at the same time Tom Watson, the Deputy Leader, and I think that Labour can show over the next ten days, particularly to Labour voters – they don’t like the status quo, they want to know how things are going to change for the benefit of them and their communities for the future and once we set out this agenda I think you will see Labour voters far more enthusiastic about the vote to Remain.  They want us to lead and not to leave.  

DM: Yes but aren’t you worried that some Labour voters will see this as an opportunity, given what we’ve discussed about the blue on blue, as an opportunity to give Mr Cameron a bloody nose?  

GORDON BROWN: And it is precisely for that reason I think we have got to show people the benefits, the positive benefits and that you are not voting simply for the status quo, you are not voting for if you like insecurity, you are not voting for a future where your jobs are at risk, you are voting for a future where we can make jobs more secure, we can create more jobs by changing the single market in Europe, we can actually improve people’s quality of life, we can improve worker’s rights.  Now historically Britain has always done best when it has been the leader in these agendas, the leader in putting forward new proposals and I am very confident in my conversations in the past with European leaders that they would welcome this British leadership in Europe.  

DM: Would they welcome it though, genuine leadership, if Britain did ultimately join the euro?  You’re the man that helped keep the UK out of the euro.  

GORDON BROWN: And that was the right decision and that shows that I don’t support Europe whether it’s right or wrong, I don’t support European measures just because they are European measures.  I support European measures when they are right for Britain and in the national interest and you see, you’ve got to get the balance right between the autonomy that we desire and the co-operation we need.  We did not need to be part of the euro to be part of the European single market, we managed to maintain the level of employment in Britain, we’ve managed to keep the financial services in London even though we are not part of the euro so it was the right decision for Britain and it is getting this balance right between being co-operative and working with our neighbours but at the same time making most of the decisions about taxation, social security, about defence, about energy, most of these decisions are still made in Britain and will continue to be so and that’s why I think as someone who didn’t propose joining the euro, I’m an advocate of European co-operation because I can see where it has benefits and we should do it but I can also see where it was not to our benefit.  

DM: So the UK may well be able to be enthusiastic members of the European Union without joining the euro but it certainly couldn’t tinker with the free movement of peoples.  Do you share, do you understand any of the concerns amongst Labour voters and so many others, about the millions of EU nationals who now reside in the United Kingdom?

GORDON BROWN: Well one of the things that I’ll be talking about tomorrow is how we relieve the pressure on communities where there have been high levels of migration and these countries need European Union financial support where there’s pressure on the health service, on schools and on amenities.  I think the government and the European Union together could do more to help communities that have felt that they are under pressure with their schools and hospitals in particular but you know, the biggest problem that we face is illegal immigration.  When we saw these boats coming in into the English Channel from Albanians trying to get into Britain, victims I think themselves of traffickers and people smugglers, when we saw these boats coming, these are illegal immigrants and the only way to stop illegal immigration is to co-operate with your neighbours, with France and the west of Europe so that we stop people before they even get to the Channel.  Now that’s why you need co-operation and it is really interesting when you look at the polls, nearly two-thirds of people want that level of European security co-operation to stop illegal immigration as well of as course to stop terrorism.

DM: But just to flesh out that point you made there, Mr Brown, you think there could be emergency EU funding for communities that are coming under pressure from migration?   

GORDON BROWN: Well when we were in government we had a Migration Assistance Fund for communities that were under pressure. There are some European measures that help communities that are under pressure.  This is a problem that Europe should share together, just as we have got to share the problem of dealing with the problem of refugees coming out of Syria and I believe that European co-operation can help here but you see illegal immigration is a problem that can only be dealt with in the end by co-operation and if that is going to be the biggest problem in future years we cannot afford to walk away from the co-operation that needs to be structured and permanent so that we can stop particularly people smugglers and particularly criminal gangs misusing and abusing the worries of people who are desperate about their future and they are the criminal element who are using illegal immigration as a means of making money.  We have got to root them out by European co-operation.   

DM: And do you think all people in the party are as enthusiastic about the European Union project as you are?  Mr Corbyn was on a popular programme on Friday night and asked on a scale of one to ten how enthusiastic he was about the European Union he gave it a seven.  I think you’re a ten.

GORDON BROWN: I’ve never been on that programme and I don't quite know what kind of a programme it is, they never invited me on when I was Labour leader, I think that’s a humorous programme.  I think he main point is this, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell – I talked to them only this morning actually – and Tom Watson, I’ve been talking to him, they are determined over the next ten days to get this positive message across. They need of course the media to report to it and that’s important that we tell you that that’s the case and I’ll be outlining a positive agenda tomorrow.  I believe it will have the support of all my colleagues in the Labour party, I also believe that European leader would want to support it and I hope the Conservative government will support it.  You see in the end people are patriotic British citizens, they are proud of our country and they are proud most of all when we lead, not standing apart, not standing alone, not standing outside and isolated as some people would like us to do but leading in Europe, showing that we’ve got the ideas and we’ve got the insights for the future, showing that our leadership can bring other countries on board and showing by our leadership how we can change Europe and of course many of the changes is Europe adopting policies that we in Britain think are the right thing for Britain and people then agree are the right things for Europe.  

DM: And you mentioned there your conversations with Labour figures, have you talked to Mr Cameron who was saying today I need to take myself out of the firing line so that Labour figures and others can have their say?  Is this co-ordinated?

GORDON BROWN:  Well that’s Mr Cameron’s decision about what he should do but I think that everybody recognises that there are 15 million or so non-Tory voters, these are people who would never vote for the Conservative party, they won’t vote for UKIP but they voted Labour, Liberal, Green, Nationalist and they have a voice that could be the most decisive voice in this referendum, particularly because of the divisions in the Conservative party.  But these voters who I know well in my own constituency and right round the country, they don’t like the status quo, they want to see things change, they want to know how Europe will make a difference to their lives in the future, they want to know what improvements we can look forward to.  They are particularly worried, mothers in particular, about the fate and the fortunes of their children, where will the jobs come from?  And I think that we can reassure them that in Europe there is more chance of creating the jobs of the future particularly through the reforms into the single market than from being outside.  So the Labour voter, but particularly all non-Tory voters, I think they are very receptive of ten days of what should be a positive message.  Of course it’s right to point out what’s wrong and the fears and the anxieties that you must have when you are taking a leap in the dark but also I think people need to know what is going to change in their lives for the better as a result of voting to stay in Europe and Labour is saying that we will lead in Europe in the future.

DM: And the thought occurs, Mr Brown, I mean we spoke at about the same time before the vote in the Scottish referendum campaign, do you think you are becoming to be seen as something as a bit of a saviour of campaigns that are in trouble?  The polls are against you, it happened in Scotland and it seems to be happening a little bit here to the Remain side and then they go, wheel out Gordon Brown.  

GORDON BROWN: No, I don't think so, I am too old to be the comeback kid and I’m not going to be that but I do want a positive message.  It was true also by the way in the Scottish referendum that people wanted to know the positive benefits of being part of the Union and they needed to know also what would go wrong if we left it but they wanted to know what are the positive benefits and I think particularly I am talking to non-Conservative voters because they don’t like much of the status quo and they want to know how things are going to change for the better and I think that was true in the Scottish referendum, it’s true in this referendum, that whilst it is right to point all the things that could go wrong it is also necessary to point out the benefits.  I will be setting this out in detail tomorrow with some proposals which I hope people will be interested in but I think the more interesting thing that I think the media and the public will want to know is that Labour is united in this message and indeed we are.

DM: Do you think there is a Scottish dimension to all this if that scenario that the UK overall votes to leave and Scotland votes to remain, that it makes a second Scottish referendum campaign more likely?

GORDON BROWN: Well clearly there are some people who would like to point to a difference in voting patterns between Scotland and England to suggest that Scotland should again have a vote on independence.  My own view is that if the arguments are put again and if we view it in a positive way about the benefits of being part of the union and of course point out that the economic situation in Scotland has changed since the last referendum two years ago, my view is that Scottish people would still vote to be part of the Union but of course we would have to persuade them to do so.  But I think that is an unlikely prospect, a referendum is an unlikely prospect in the near future.

DM: There is also talk, Mr Brown, there is also thinking about a second referendum on the EU if the vote is to leave and it’s close because there are so many different kinds of relationship that an independent United Kingdom could have with the European Union.

GORDON BROWN: Yes, I’ve looked at all these and I’ve published a book called Britain Leading Not Leaving it’s a paperback and it’s available and I’ve gone through what would it be like if we followed the course of Norway or followed the course of Switzerland or followed what some people call the open …

DM: Well there we are, unfortunately just towards the end of the interview as you noticed  there, former Prime Minister Gordon Brown saying he will be making a major speech on the positive reasons for staying within the European Union he believes tomorrow, Gordon Brown speaking to me from North Queensferry.