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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now it was of course the topic David Cameron warned his party some time back to stop banging on about but the clamours over Europe have only got louder and this week is of course crunch time.  On Thursday the Prime Minister will set out his stall in Brussels hoping for an agreement on a package of reforms to Britain’s relationship with the European Union.  Well I am joined now by one of the most influential MPs in Parliament, Graham Brady.  As Chair of the 1922 Committee he is effectively the leader of the Conservative back benches and a very good morning to you Mr Brady.  Right, well let’s focus on Brussels, do you think it is really not worth bothering the Prime Minister with this given that you don’t really think what he has got already or the proto-agreement with Donald Tusk amounts to much?

GRAHAM BRADY: I think all the things that David Cameron is trying to get out of the EU are good, are positive things but for many of us it just doesn’t come anywhere near to being sufficient.  I wanted to see real powers being brought back to British control, I wanted to see things taken out of the hands of Brussels and back in British democratic control but it doesn’t come anywhere near that.

DM: So you know he is not going to get that because we saw what he thrashed out with Donald Tusk and we suspect that even that will be watered down when he comes before his EU partners?

GRAHAM BRADY: Who can say but as far as I’m concerned what it doesn’t constitute, even if he gets everything he is asking for, it isn’t the fundamental change, it isn’t the thing that brings real democratic control back to the United Kingdom, restores our ability to decide who governs us and to be able to kick people out when we don’t like them.

DM: But are there those who perhaps didn’t entirely support your point of view and thought, okay, Donald Tusk, that is quite a good agreement he worked out with the Prime Minister, if they get something like that then maybe I might vote for in?

GRAHAM BRADY: You are talking about my colleagues and certainly I never pretend to talk to speak for all of my back bench colleagues especially on this subject, where there is a very wide spectrum of views and of course there will be people who think this is a good deal, that it’s sufficient for them but I think many, many people in Parliament and outside, all over the country, are looking at this and thinking is it really the fundamental change in our relationship with the EU that we wanted?  Does it take us back to what we thought we were joining forty odd years ago?  Does it take us back to something which was really a trading agreement and an ability to co-operate with other sovereign states and clearly it doesn’t do that.

DM: There is rumbling in the back of all these negotiations, noises coming from our senior European partners at the moment saying that there will actually be a price for the UK should it get agreement, should it then vote to remain within the European Union, that you will have to get more involved, you will have to become more of an active partner.

GRAHAM BRADY: The fundamental thing that we want and I think have always wanted with our European partners is free and open trade, given that they sell more to us than we sell to them.  I don't think there is any danger of that free and open trade being suspended, they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face, so I think it is a given that we would have good open access to European markets just as we would continue to allow good open access to British markets for our European partners but it’s pretty odd isn’t it, it’s a pretty strange kind of club that we’re a member of if the other members, as we try to change our relationship, are seeking to threaten us.  It doesn’t sound like such a good arrangement as perhaps is sometimes being suggested.

DM: But the threats are not just coming from our partners are they?  What do you think of the campaign clearly underway at the moment, there are those on your side who say Project Fear has already started from those who want us to remain within the European Union, thinking about today’s story on the front of the Sunday Times – air fares will go up.  During the course of last week we had 5000 migrants will come here overnight from Calais, what do you make of this?

GRAHAM BRADY: Yes, indeed.  Well it’s not so long ago that many of the same people were telling us that the British economy would be finished if we didn’t join the euro so I think we should take all of these things with a pinch of salt but it is unfortunate I think that we’re not getting the kind of positive debate that would be more welcome I think from most of the British people.  Really the question is, is it a bigger leap in the dark to stay in the European Union or are we taking a risk to leave?  Now I think we know beyond doubt after all of these decades of membership that staying in the European Union isn’t a static position, there is no status quo.  If you are in this organisation it carries on integrating, it carries on increasing powers to itself.  It has done it throughout its history, it will continue to do that.

DM: But what those kind of stories do tell us is that it seems that the Stay In campaigns have got their act together, they are coming across on an almost daily basis with a different story whereas on the Leave side you’ve got various different campaigns, we know about the bickering within the camps, do you not think it would be best to try and get one organisation to speak for you all?

GRAHAM BRADY: Well of course we should have one organisation speaking for the Leave campaign, I hope that we will get there soon, I hope that it will happen through the Electoral Commission getting on with designation of the Leave campaign and then we can all get on with the important thing which is campaigning to restore British democracy but all of these campaigns, all of these stories that have been coming out of the campaign to remain, they may have been very good at producing this copy but as soon as it hits the front pages, as soon as it’s in the broadcast media, it’s all been comprehensively rubbished so in many ways I think the more extreme some of these stories become, the more the campaign to frighten people into staying gets into gear, the more effectively it is putting people off the European Union, the more effectively it is making people think there might be something a little bit dodgy about this organisation that we’re a member of.

DM: Just talk to me about timings within your own party, within the government, after the Brussels meeting.  Should there be a cabinet meeting as soon as possible, perhaps next Saturday, to say to those who say ‘Well Prime Minister, you tried very hard, we appreciate all your efforts but you didn’t get enough, please now let us speak out to leave the European Union’?

GRAHAM BRADY: I think that is absolutely essential.  It is in everybody’s interests to do this as quickly as possible and if it were to appear that David Cameron was seeking to have the whole weekend to himself to put one side of the argument, I think that would look bad for the Remain campaign.  People want an honest, fair debate, they want an honest, fair campaign so I think it is in the interests of both sides to have an early cabinet meeting and to make sure that people who want to speak out, people who want to exploit the freedom of conscience that has rightly been agreed, can do so as soon as possible.

DM: And that should take place on Saturday then?

GRAHAM BRADY: Well let’s look at the timings, if it could take place on Friday evening that would be even better.

DM: Okay and what about Mr Cameron himself, that poll out today saying he’s been damaged, people are losing confidence in Mr Cameron on the EU renegotiations.  This is the man of course who won an unexpected overall majority for your party, do you think it is chipping away at him?

GRAHAM BRADY: Well I certainly think it is a mistake to try to oversell this deal. It is very clear to everybody it is not a fundamental change in our relationship with the European Union so it is a mistake to oversell it but also, looking at it in a more positive way, every time over the last few years as Prime Minister David Cameron has done something on the eurosceptic side, every time he stood up for Britain, every time – when he vetoed the Treaty, when he managed to get the EU budget capped – on all of those occasions his popularity spiked.  So let’s hope he draws an inference.

DM: Right, but he still technically could be again staying in the European Union, very unlikely but if he does campaign to remain and loses that referendum as you would like to say, haven’t you then ended his career?

GRAHAM BRADY: I think the opposite really.  I think it’s essential that if and when we vote to leave the European Union, I think we should all seek to have David Cameron stay in office through what will be a very important period of renegotiation and I think that having that degree of stability will be important for the country and I don't think David Cameron will walk away overnight because I think he is more responsible than that, I think he would know he would have a real commitment to the country and a need to make sure that we come through that period with maximum stability and reassure everybody we can do this.

DM: Always great seeing you, we must end it there Mr Brady, thank you very much indeed. Graham Brady there from 1922 Committee.