Murnaghan Interview with Grant Shapps
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS
DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, David Cameron has finally got one up on Nigel Farage this weekend after a UKIP MEP defected to the Conservatives. Amjad Bashir announced he was switching sides yesterday evening but that was just hours after he was suspended by UKIP for what they’re calling ‘serious financial issues’. Mr Bashir rejects the claims as absurd and made up allegations, so what’s going on? Well who better to tell us than Grant Shapps, the Conservative Party Chairman, who joins me now, a very good morning to you Mr Shapps. There must be a bit of a spring in your step, how long have you been plotting this then?
GRANT SHAPPS: Well it has been discussed over a period of time obviously and it’s great to see inasmuch as Mr Bashir, a UKIP MEP, former UKIP MEP, has been absolutely clear. He says if you really care about things like controlling immigration and getting a referendum, an in/out referendum on Europe, the only party who can deliver it are the Conservative party and UKIP are just fooling people by trying to shout from the sidelines, disorganised chaos, are never going to actually deliver anything. He’s come to realise that and that’s why he’s moved to us.
DM: Nevertheless, the gloss has been taken off a bit for you has it then by these allegations that have been made by UKIP about financial irregularities?
GRANT SHAPPS: Absolute desperate stuff there by UKIP who discovered that he was defecting and then came out with all of this, nothing that UKIP haven’t known about for literally months if not years. In fact Nigel Farage himself has defended Mr Bashir in the past over exactly the same, at least one of the …
DM: But have you asked him about these allegations, presumably you want to clear this up and you want to know what’s been going on?
GRANT SHAPPS: Yes, absolutely, we’ve done our due diligence, it’s all there on record. The idea that UKIP were about to suspend him is complete nonsense.
DM: So in your book he is squeaky clean, obviously you don’t work for UKIP and you don’t know what’s been going on but you are saying you have investigated the allegations that UKIP are making against him and you’re satisfied there is nothing there for him to answer?
GRANT SHAPPS: Yes, that’s right and what’s more actually UKIP were satisfied with that until yesterday when they rushed out this suspension. Look, the key point is not about one individual, it’s about what this means for the wider debate that we’re having and the wider debate is if you want to have your say in Europe, if you want that in/out referendum, you can’t get it in any other way than having a Conservative government, David Cameron as Prime Minister and you’ll have the referendum in 2017. That’s the long and the short of it and …
DM: Can I just ask you this, have you got your hooks into any other UKIP members?
GRANT SHAPPS: Look UKIP members, Mr Bashir is not the first MEP to defect, Marta Andreason who was by the way a UKIP MEP and defected to the Conservatives, by the way UKIP were making all sorts of allegations about her all of which were unfounded as well but she came …
DM: But there’s a dirty war going on there isn’t there? Presumably they’re still talking to your people and you’re trying to poach them.
GRANT SHAPPS: Well I think, look, we’re 102 days from the most important general election this country has known for generations because there’s a proper choice out there, either Ed Miliband or David Cameron become Prime Minister with very, very different visions for this country and UKIP have up till now have thrived on being able to shout from the sidelines, incredibly chaotic, you don’t really know where they stand on any issues from even the NHS this week, we’re not sure whether they want to privatise it or not privatise it and what Mr Bashir and I think many other UKIP former supporters are realising, if you want real clarity, if you want competence, if you want the future to kind of look brighter, you have got to vote for a party that is serious.
DM: Well give us some clarity in your own view then on that referendum and one eye looking at the chaos that might be caused perhaps by the Greek election today, which way would you vote if there were a referendum now?
GRANT SHAPPS: Do you know what, it’s kind of interesting seeing what’s going on in Greece and you just covered in some detail. Let’s not forget that five years ago Britain had the same sized deficit as a proportion of our economy that Greece had. We took one route, which was to sort out, take the difficult decisions and sort out our economy, Greece has not done that and you see the chaos they’re in. Now you ask about what all that means going forward to the economy, the truth is unless we finish this job off, unless we sort out Britain’s long term deficit, there will never be …
DM: I was going to ask you about the economy in a minute but the question was about a referendum. As Europe is currently configured and we know there is going to a renegotiation if there is a Conservative led government, which way would you vote now? Do you think it’s just a terrible mess?
GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, I think people in this country are pretty clear, Europe is too big, too bossy, it’s trying to do too much and people are fed up with that which is why you have got to have a renegotiation.
DM: So you are an outer at the moment?
GRANT SHAPPS: I am actually convinced that what will happen is that we will go into that renegotiation and we will get what we want and we’ll put that to the British people and it actually doesn’t matter what I think, the British people will decide. The reason I think we can do this is because Britain, no one has noticed but in the last year we overtook France as the second biggest economy in Europe. The International Monetary Fund, the IMF, say in 15 years’ time Britain will likely, if we follow the right track, the path that we’re on, be the biggest economy in Europe, overtaking Germany.
DM: So is this a pledge, is this a Conservative pledge, if you stay in power you will make us a bigger economy than Germany?
GRANT SHAPPS: Well this is what the IMF has said is their prediction, if we follow the right set of … there’s a path isn’t there, we’re at a crossroads, we’re at a fork in the road I suppose and if we follow the right path and finish off this route to prosperity, we can be the biggest economy in Europe and for that reason I believe that Europe will absolutely need to negotiate with us about the terms of a referendum.
DM: Okay, I’ve got to ask you about the terror situation, we’ve seen these awful events in Syria including that poor Japanese hostage at the moment, just underlining for us the kind of threat that these people pose and relating it to our own communities. We were all interested to see the Home Secretary, Theresa May, talking about Jewish communities feeling vulnerable, feeling fearful and fearful of remaining in Britain, do you share those concerns with the Home Secretary?
GRANT SHAPPS: I think it’s really important as a country that we make it clear that not just for the Jewish community but also for the Muslim community, every community, that Britain is a place that is big, open, that we have a tradition of tolerance that stretches back hundreds of years and that there’s no space for that kind of radicalism that would force people out so I think we have got a very different atmosphere here and I think it’s important that we do have a government and a Home Secretary who are quick to acknowledge where there are concerns but no, look, I don't think people are living in fear in this country, quite rightly not.
DM: But you will have read Baroness Warsi writing in the Observer today, of course your former Cabinet colleague, saying that she feels that former colleagues have failed to show concern – and I quote directly – failed to show concern for the worries and fears felt by the three million Muslims in this country, is she right?
GRANT SHAPPS: I don’t disagree that it’s important to make every community feel safe and secure and in fact her criticisms were wider than that, she was talking about actually the last Labour government, she was talking about …
DM: But she is talking about this government as well and she pointed out the fact that Mr Cameron holds an annual meeting with members of the Jewish community and there is no equivalent with the Muslim community, do you think that should change?
GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, that is because it so happens that through the Jewish community there is the Board of Jewish Deputies for example, there’s a particular organisation or set up within that community which makes it easier for politicians to speak to people and know that they are broadly representative. That just doesn’t happen to exist currently within the Muslim community, it would be very helpful I think all round if it did but there’s no, within government we spend a huge amount of time, Eric Pickles, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, making sure that the Muslim community is absolutely engaged in every part of British life and that’s absolutely the way it should be and I am passionate about making sure that we have a country where everyone feels safe and secure.
DM: Now you are writing in the Daily Telegraph, the Sunday Telegraph today, it being Sunday of course, and you say the manifesto is nearly finished for the general election for the Conservatives and you’re pretty close to promising us a cut in inheritance tax.
GRANT SHAPPS: It was actually an interview in the Sunday Telegraph but look, the Prime Minister said before that our instincts are as a lower tax party, we don’t want to see people earn their money, work all their lives, build up an asset perhaps in their home and have it stripped away from them but we’ve been absolutely clear, we can’t make that commitment until we’ve got the deficit under control. George Osborne has been clear about that, it’s going to take another couple more years of austerity, we need to cut a further 30 billion to do that and then I very much hope we can move to the things that I think are if you like imperatives. I think you should with tax cuts look after the least well off in society which is why we are going to move that tax threshold up to £12,500, someone on minimum wage won’t pay any tax at all.
DM: Which the Lib Dems got you to do.
GRANT SHAPPS: Look, with a big open heart here I think that was a good policy and I’m very pleased we’ve done it and I’m delighted that there are now 25 to 27, 30 million people paying less tax.
DM: Listen, we’re nearly out of time but I’ve got to ask you about the television debates. Now we’ve got these latest proposals from the broadcasters, so what more excuses is the Prime Minister going to come up with to avoid them?
GRANT SHAPPS: Look, we’ve said all along I think something that the British people agree with which is you cannot choose one minority party and exclude another, particularly when that other one, the Greens in this case, actually have got …
DM: Okay, well you’ve got the proposal of seven parties, will the Prime Minister be there or not?
GRANT SHAPPS: Look, we’ve said we think it’s a good idea to include all of the parties, not arbitrarily exclude parties, specifically the Greens who elected an MP at a general election.
DM: Okay, they’re there but currently excluded are the Democratic Unionist Party from Northern Ireland, I’m going to be hearing from their Deputy Leader in a bit, is the Prime Minister going to use that as excuse to avoid them? Will he categorically be there?
GRANT SHAPPS: Dermot, let me just be absolutely clear with you, the Prime Minister wants the debates to happen, he thought they were a good innovation, we all did last time round, we think they could be done better and not swallow up the whole of the campaign which they did last time and prevent people from seeing the leaders out in the country but actually great, let’s have a debate, either with the two men, one of whom will be Prime Minister – Ed Miliband or David Cameron, or with everybody, but not arbitrarily cut out people who actually elected MPs at the last election.
DM: So is that a yes or a no?
GRANT SHAPPS: It’s a yes, we want the debates but the negotiations need to be completed with the TV broadcasters.
DM: Okay, Grant Shapps, thank you very much indeed. The Conservative Party Chairman there.
