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ANNA JONES: Now Britain would face a lesser future if it left the EU, that’s what former Sir John Major has said this morning.  It comes as the Italian Prime Minister said a British exit from the EU would be a disaster for both Britain and for Europe.  So is David Cameron’s lectern thumping strategy sending out the wrong signals?  Well the Conservative Party Chairman, Grant Shapps, joins me now from Hatfield in Hertfordshire and Mr Shapps, I’m going to turn our attention to John Major and Europe in just a moment, first though I want to get your reaction to the views of a video that has been posted online purporting to show the killing of another Western hostage, an American hostage Peter Kassig, what is your response to that?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well the Foreign Office and others are studying it at the moment to check its authenticity.  If as seems I’m afraid likely it is genuine then I’m appalled. It’s disgusting, it’s barbaric, I think everybody in this country, everybody around the world will see this and it reveals ISIL for what they really are.  They are just a twisted ideology who are out to do evil in the world and it is one of the reasons why Britain can’t just stand by, it is one of the reasons why we are active with the RAF of course over Iraq to tackle ISIS.  

AJ: Does more need to be done?  At the moment British forces are focused on Iraq, should that be extended to Syria as well?  

GRANT SHAPPS: Well we have always said that we will keep that under review.  The Cabinet and then Parliament voted for action initially in Iraq.  I do think that these things have to be kept under review as the situation on the ground develops.  Of course the situation in Syria is quite different because of Assad there but I also think that it is important that we do everything possible so just in the last week the Defence Secretary has talked about the way that British troops are helping to increase capacity amongst the Iraqi forces by training them on the ground.  I think that every assistance that we can give is absolutely essential but we can’t just stand by.  This is something that ISIL are determined to have our involvement in and the world cannot just allow this barbaric behaviour to go unchecked.

AJ: Let me turn your attention then to Europe and Sir John Major’s intervention on the issue of Europe.  Why did he feel the need to intervene, it would imply he is not very impressed with the way this has been handled so far.

GRANT SHAPPS: Well actually I think it was exactly the opposite.  He went out of his way to say that he agreed with the way that David Cameron and the Conservatives are handling Europe and John Major, remember, is somebody who secured a series of very important opt outs from the EU, the most important of which was of course that Britain would keep the pound, which we did, and as a result we have been able to emerge from this great recession all the stronger as the fastest growing economy in Europe, in fact in the developed world, and a lot of that is to do with having our own currency but John Major also got us other opt outs, those included things like the Social Chapter, which the previous government then came along and opted us into.  Now most people in this country think that Europe is too big, too bossy, too interfering.  John Major was saying all of that and saying that actually there does need to be an appetite for change and that it’s right to put that decision to the British people in that in/out referendum that only the Conservatives would deliver in 2017.

AJ: Well you say that he backed David Cameron’s methods but he did say, didn’t he, that compromise and tact were needed in the upcoming talks.  He said wise negotiators will turn down the oratory and turn up the diplomacy, do you think he’d approve of David Cameron then saying he was downright angry, using expressions like that and thumping on the lectern in response to a big EU Bill?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well those are over two different issues.  John Major I think was talking specifically about getting some of the changes that we need with regards to things like …

AJ: But he was talking about the way of dealing with European partners is to deal with them with compromise and tact and I am suggesting that David Cameron is showing more anger perhaps when dealing with the European parliament.  

GRANT SHAPPS: I watched John Major this morning on the Andrew Marr Show and he was very clearly in that particular case talking about how some people are sceptical that we can get change in Europe but how in the end Europe does actually understand that it needs to negotiate particularly over things like immigration.  Now your viewers will be interested to hear that we’ve had a lot of success handling immigration from outside of the EU where we do have the numbers back down to the levels of the 1990s, indeed when John Major was Prime Minister.  We closed down 700 bogus colleges, stopped people from coming in from outside of the EU unless they are coming here to work but we have not been able to do the same within the EU and part of the reason for that is, as I’ve just described, is because our economy has been moving ahead whilst France and Germany and others have been teetering on recession again and that has attracted a lot more people here.  Now David Cameron absolutely rightly is saying on behalf of the British people, we don’t think this is an open ended deal.  We believe that we should have some control over people coming here.  People can come here to work, yes, but not to claim benefits and just last week for example we introduced new rules to mean that people can’t come here and claim benefits for more than three months.  If they don’t have a realistic prospect of a job then they have to get out again.  Those are the changes we have already made, John Major is making the point that through negotiation we can make more and David Cameron would say you are only strong in those negotiations if you then put the results of it to a referendum so it is the British people who decide and not politicians.  

AJ: John Major also said that Britain would face a lesser future if not in the EU, do you agree?  

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, I think the decision over the EU depends on the negotiation that we get with the EU so it isn’t satisfactory at the moment – too big, too bossy, too interfering. There are too many things that the EU tends to want to get itself involved in and I am not satisfied that the current European Commission quite has got that message yet, certainly the outgoing Commission President who was over here just two or three weeks ago telling us our view, 65 million people, it didn’t really matter.  I reject all of that, I think it absolutely must matter what Britain thinks and says.  We are likely to be the economy which will be the second biggest, probably overtaking France in the next year or two  and therefore I think that the European Commission must pay attention to what members states are saying and that once we have renegotiated it is right to put that to the British people but you can only get that referendum by voting for it and that means voting Conservative at the next election.

AJ: Will you hit your target on immigration?    

GRANT SHAPPS: Well from outside Europe, as I said, we have been very successful.  From inside Europe we have a problem which has been spurred by the fact that we have had the fastest growing of the economies in Europe and that is attracting people here and we don’t think that we have sufficient controls over that so we do …  

AJ: Sorry to interrupt but David Cameron did make this pledge or is it a pledge? What do we call it now, is it a promise, is it a pledge, a comment I think Theresa May called it, what do you call it?  Do you call it a promise?  

GRANT SHAPPS: Well as I say, I’m completely upfront with you, we are working to make sure that we can return immigration to levels of the 90s and we’ve done that from outside Europe.  We haven’t done it from inside Europe but we recognise that in order to achieve that …

AJ: I’m sorry to keep interrupting you but this pledge was to reduce annual net migration to below 100,000, are we going to hit that?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, this was by the end of the parliament and we’re not there yet so I’m not going to project forward but what I can say is we recognise that no one would have realised five years ago Europe would still be teetering on recession as it is now whilst our economy is growing 3, 3.5% this year.  That has presented a series of new issues and we do need to have a grip of immigration within Europe which is why we are acting but also why we think we need to renegotiate.  I can’t project forward to tell you whether that target will be met or not but I can tell you that we’re taking it seriously, we get it, we know that people care about it and actually we’ll be hearing more from the Prime Minister on the subject very soon as well.

AJ: If that target isn’t hit will the Conservatives apologise?

GRANT SHAPPS: Well look, I think what you have to do in government is to go out of your way to try to meet every target that you set.  Sometimes things are outside your control, as I say that recession in Europe five years later, or near recession, is something that I don't think any economist was predicting at the time and so we’ll assess what needs to be done but the important thing is, you cannot get control of your borders, of EU migration, without making some changes to the way the EU operates and that’s why you’ve got to have that negotiation, you’ve got to have a referendum so we present the only plausible way, the only possible way of getting a grip on migration within Europe is a vote for the Conservatives so that we can get that in/out referendum following that renegotiation.  

AJ: Let me just turn your attention briefly to Rochester as well with the by-election coming up this week.  The polls suggest that the Tories are going to lose it,  how worried are you about that and how many more Conservative MPs might defect now to UKIP?  

GRANT SHAPPS:  Look, you’ll forgive me for wanting to wait for the final result, the polls also show that we would win it in a general election but I am much more interested in the poll on Thursday when the people of Rochester and Strood will get to decide.  I was down there yesterday and what a lot of people are saying there is we actually want an MP who is from our area, who cares about our area, who knows about the area and that’s Kelly Tolhurst, our Conservative candidate and not somebody who has just jumped ship in order to promote their own career, switched sides on a bunch of different issues down there from the whether or not to support the 12,000 homes being built down there or not.  So we’ve got a candidate who is interested in representing Rochester and Strood for the long term.  What happens is a matter for people there on Thursday but I am very keen that people hear our message, which is if you want to finish off the long term plan to fix our economy but also back Kelly Tolhurst, the local candidate’s plan for Rochester and Strood, she has got a very detailed plan there, then a vote for the Conservatives is the way to achieve all of that.  

AJ: Grant Shapps, we appreciate your time here this morning, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.