ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So will the Prime Minister take part in  head to head television debates with Ed Miliband before the election?  It’s the question that has dominated politics this week and Mr Cameron is still refusing to agree to the demands.  Well now, Labour want to create, as you just heard, a law to make sure that debates go ahead in the future, would that be a step too far?  Well Harriet Harman is the Deputy Labour Leader and she also holds of course the Opposition brief for Culture, Media and Sport.  A very good morning to you, we’ll get on to that in a moment but of course it is International Women’s Day which in the great scheme of things is much more important, or is it?  Can I ask you I suppose a rather naïve question, is it a good thing, International Women’s Day or does it allow people to get off the hook and say, there, it’s gone now, we’ve addressed it for one day of the year, now we’ll move on?

HARRIET HARMAN: I think it’s a very good idea and it’s a good idea for women in this country to be thinking not only about the situation that faces women in this country and, for all the progress we’ve made, the inequality that is still there but also to think about women elsewhere in the world and to redouble our commitment to, for example what’s happened to those girls in Northern Nigeria, what’s happened to the awful culture of rape in India and it’s women’s solidarity across the world so I think it’s a very good thing and it happens in all countries in the world.

DM: But focusing  on our own country and focusing on the place where you have worked for many years and inhabited, it is still looking awfully male isn’t it?  The signals that sends out, even from a party like your own which is making steps to try to address that and I see your current candidate list, if you do well in the general election, would mean you’d have a lot more female MPs, it’s still not good enough is it?

HARRIET HARMAN: Well we have made a lot of progress but you’re absolutely right, we have got a lot further to go.  We have got a situation now where in our Shadow Cabinet we are 43% women so we are nearly half and half and that is tremendous progress. After the next election we will have over a hundred Labour women MPs probably but still, in the House of Commons as a whole women are very much outnumbered and I think part of that is what lies behind the fact that millions of women didn’t vote in the last general election, 9.1 million women didn’t vote and actually the suffragettes fought for them to have a right to vote but we as women in politics, we believe as Labour women we’ve got to give them a reason to vote and there is a reason to vote because actually women could be going forward in their lives when currently they are going backwards.  

DM: But do you think there would be a difference, I know you mentioned this when it came to the great financial crash, about having more women involved in so many areas, in politics, in business and in finance and even global affairs, would there be a difference do you feel – and your colleague Madeleine Moon has mentioned it when it comes to defence – that removing testosterone, having a lack of testosterone in these issues?

HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think there’s two reasons why we want to see equality in decision making.  The first is because it’s a matter of fairness and meritocracy, why should you discriminate against half the population, you don’t get the best people and therefore you want to tackle discrimination but also you get a more balanced view.  All male teams will make different sorts of decisions than a balanced team of women and men.  And the other thing is that there is still a very big difference in women and men’s lives.  I mean men and women can be living under the same roof but still have a different life with women taking more of the responsibility for bringing up children, caring for older relatives, going out to work yes but earning much less than men.  

DM: But you must have seen that, that all-male thing, going on a lot in politics, even within your own party.  One thinks back to the sofa government that took place under Tony Blair, him and the chaps sitting around, kicking things around and invading countries.  

HARRIET HARMAN: Well Labour women have really fought to change that, there has been big controversy and rows within the party to make progress on that and Ed Miliband has said that he won’t rest until half the parliamentary Labour party is women and half his Cabinet is women so actually there are now men in the Labour party, specifically Ed Miliband, as well as women in the Labour party fighting for change but we’ve got to show women outside in this country that politics is not a men only business.  We’ve been going all around the country in our infamous pink bus, talking to women …  

DM: I was going to get on to that, patronising?  

HARRIET HARMAN: Well no, engaging.  

DM: Because it’s pink.  

HARRIET HARMAN: Well it’s bright and eye-catching because it’s pink but actually it is …

DM: It is pink then?

HARRIET HARMAN: It is but to go like we went to his estate in Merseyside, Overchurch, where I was looking at the figures on women’s earnings.  On average women’s earnings in that constituency of West Wirral, have gone down by £3000 actual earnings, since 2010 and that is from £20,000 to £17,000.  We are taking our bus out and we are listening to those women and we are saying that is not okay.  We want to get elected not just so we can sit our backsides in the government but so that we can do something about this, that there are women there fighting for change and equality for women.  

DM: Talking about female representation, let’s talk about the Leaders’ Debates, certainly the one involving seven or maybe more party leaders, by my estimation there would be three female party leaders taking part in that alongside your own male leader and it is still unclear whether Mr Cameron will go along to that.  You want to pass into law the requirement that debates take place?

HARRIET HARMAN: I think so.  I think that basically people in this country want to see a debate between the party leaders but also between the contestants for Number Ten Downing Street who is actually David Cameron and Ed Miliband and I think something like 20 million people watched it last time and I have actually met people who have said I haven’t made up my mind how I’m going to vote yet and I’ve said, well what is going to make up your mind, what can we tell you about and they have said, we’re waiting for the Leaders’ Debates so …

DM: But tell me about the law, what level of compulsion?  Would you actually end up arresting the Prime Minister if he or she refuses to take part?

HARRIET HARMAN: It’s about instead of having this negotiation which is the broadcasters working together on an ad-hoc basis and David Cameron just ducking and weaving, that instead there would be a legal framework like there is for the party election broadcasts, like there is for the rules on election spending and the election campaign.  I think the debates are an important part of our democracy, in which case let’s not have the Prime Minister of the day ducking and weaving because he’s afraid of actually justifying his record, let’s have a legal framework set out and then we won’t have this all over again next time round.  

DM: Of course we know what is being regulated, you know more than most given your brief in Culture, Media and Sport, is it’s a rapidly changing broadcasting environment and when it comes to the spending rules at the moment, in terms of the way the parties are trying to address the voters, there are many unregulated forums out there now, particularly online, where the spend is going.  Couldn’t that happen then when it comes to debates and discussions?

HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think that if you have an independent body set up which has the confidence of the political parties and the broadcasters, which is within a statutory framework, it can look at the situation as it is at the time but I think the bottom line is it’s not too late for David Cameron to actually say – I think if somebody is saying I want to be Prime Minister, I want to be in Number Ten Downing Street but by the way I’m not going to go out there and debate it, it’s not acceptable.  He should have the guts to go out there and say this is what I’ve done since I’ve been Prime Minister and this is what I want to do next and the fact that he won’t do that shows that he is not prepared to justify what he has done over the last few years, all he seems to be doing is talking up other parties.

DM: Have you discussed it with Ed Miliband?  Is this anytime, anyplace, anywhere pledge genuinely is that, 24 hours’ notice, Mr Cameron says he will do it, Mr Miliband will be there?  

HARRIET HARMAN: Yes, I think so because yes, for definite because our democracy is important and our democracy is more important than any one particular party.  It’s about people in this country being able to see what they’re voting for and millions of people, more women than men but lots of men as well, don’t vote because they don’t think politicians are straight with them, they’re not prepared to level with them and I’m afraid the Prime Minister is proving himself a classic example of that.   

DM: And lastly, can I just ask you more about Mr Miliband’s speech yesterday on this issue of Labour doing a deal with the Scottish National Party.  People of course want to know what they’re voting for if they vote Labour and if they vote for Labour they vote for an austerity programme, a watered down austerity programme compared to the one they’re being offered by the Conservatives and they vote for the integrity of the United Kingdom.  If you go into coalition with the Scottish National Party they might not get either of those, will you formally rule out a Labour coalition or a supply and confidence deal with the SNP after the next election?

HARRIET HARMAN: Well for a start we’re not supporting austerity, we want to pay the deficit down but in a fair way, in a way that protects public services.  The Tories like to make people worse off but we are totally against that and that’s why we focus on …

DM: That’s the definition of the Labour cuts.   What about a deal with the SNP?  

HARRIET HARMAN: Well basically we want an overall majority, we don’t want to be having a coalition with anybody because we want to be in an overall majority and the reality in Scotland …

DM: Let’s say you’re not.  

HARRIET HARMAN: But the reality is in Scotland is that people who vote SNP, if there is an SNP MP they are more likely to get a Tory government, they are more likely to get David Cameron in again because actually the competition in Scotland is not between the SNP and the Tories, the competition in Scotland is between SNP and Labour so the fewer Labour MPs you have, the more likely you are to have a Tory Prime Minister and therefore this is a kind of bogus argument because we want to get in with an overall majority.  

DM: Well is it a bogus argument?  If you don’t get an overall majority, and you must admit that is a possibility, if you don’t get an overall majority would you go into coalition or even do a deal with the SNP?

HARRIET HARMAN: We need more seats because we’re not in government at the moment, even in coalition so …

DM: But why won’t you rule this out?  Why don’t you just say we will not do a deal with the SNP?  

HARRIET HARMAN: The point is if you look at the maths, if we had fewer seats because we have lost Labour seats to the SNP, then the only result of that will not be a Labour government in majority or even in coalition with anybody, it will be a Tory government.  

DM: This is your appeal to Labour voters who are thinking of voting SNP in Scotland.

HARRIET HARMAN: No, it’s the fact, it’s the maths, it’s the maths.  You see this argument, you’re asking the question as if it’s a sensible question but it’s not a sensible question …

DM: Why, because you’ll get more than 326 seats?   

HARRIET HARMAN: No, because this question is put forward by two sides.  It’s put forward by the Tories who want to talk up the SNP because they don’t think they can talk up their own record and it’s put up by the SNP because they know people in Scotland hate the Tories, quite justifiably, but the only way to protect people in Scotland from another Tory government is not to vote Labour … not to vote SNP but to vote Labour.  
DM: But you’re not ruling out a deal?  

HARRIET HARMAN: We’re planning and working towards a majority.  

DM: Harriet Harman, very good to see you, thank you very much indeed.