ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well the UK must continue to use its extensive resources to fight terror according to the Foreign Secretary.  Fifteen British people are confirmed to have died in Friday’s beach massacre in Tunisia with many more missing and injured, it’s the worst loss of British lives in a terrorist attack since 7/7, almost exactly a decade ago.  I am joined now by the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, good morning to you Mr Benn and our thoughts first of all with the families of the victims and those that have been injured and the fear is that the British death toll may rise.

HILARY BENN: That is the fear, this is an unfolding human tragedy and I think all our thoughts particularly on this day must be with the families and friends of those who have lost their lives, those who are lying injured in hospital and also the relatives back home who haven’t get got news about what happened to family members who are on holiday.  So the absolute priority is to give every support to those who are in Sousse, those who are in hospitals and the families back home, the FCO consular teams are there, the travel operators are working extremely hard  because people need help, they need support. Those who want to come back need to be able to travel back as quickly as possible but we don’t yet know the final death toll, the nationality of all of those who were killed.  This was an utterly brutal and cowardly attack on innocent holiday makers and we need to stand in solidarity with those who have been caught up in this terrible tragedy.

DM: We also need to know, don’t we, whether the attacker knew that this was a hotel with lots of British people in it and whether it was deliberately aimed at attacking them.

HILARY BENN: We don’t yet know that.  A bit of information about this attacker has emerged but I think what this attack demonstrates is an individual with a gun and a grievance and a warped and brutal ideology can kill a lot of people.

DM: That is the point isn’t it?  And that can happen on any shores including our own and the security services are telling us that they do foil a lot of plots, many of them they can’t tell us about, but a lone wolf may get through.  

HILARY BENN: That is true, there is a threat around the world because if you think back to 9/11, look at the countries where there has been terrorist attacks since then, obviously here in London almost ten years ago and we will be commemorating that anniversary shortly, in the United States of America, in Bali, in Pakistan, in France and Spain, all over the world there is a threat and we should pay tribute today to the work that our security services, the intelligence agencies and the police do because as the Home Secretary said recently, about 40 plots have been foiled in the last ten years. It shows there is a continuing risk and it is important that we remain vigilant, all of us, including families and parents worried about what may be happening to their young people because we look at the number of young people from Britain who have been groomed often online and chosen to go to Syria and Iraq and of course Tunisia has been the source of a particularly large number of fighters in those countries.  

DM: But when you look at the number of countries you name there where there are threats, and there are many others as well, and the Foreign Secretary talks about using extensive resources of the UK to counter terrorism, however extensive our resources are that’s beyond the UK.

HILARY BENN: Oh it is, this is an international problem.  This is an evil, warped, brutal ideology that we are fighting and I thought the hotel owner who we saw at the top of your report said that we’ve all got a responsibility to work together.  The Tunisian government under Prime Minister Essid has taken some action in relation to mosques where they feel that messages are being preached.  This is a big problem for Tunisia because tourism is a very, very important part of its economy.  The Foreign Office has changed its travel advice, rightly so but the truth is that there is a risk everywhere and after the terrible attack in London ten years ago some people decided, well I’m not going to come to London but there is a balance to be struck and in the end if we allow the terrorists to win by disrupting our lives then that will give them a victory that we are not prepared to give them and we have to be resolute, recognising that there is a risk but individuals will have to take their own decisions based on the best advice and the Foreign Office has got that responsibility for British nationals who are travelling abroad.

DM: And just while you mention 7/7, two of the perpetrators came from your constituency didn’t they?

HILARY BENN: That’s true, yes.

DM: How do feel then about the Prime Minister last week talking about the minorities within communities that quietly condone the ideology that leads to atrocities like that?

HILARY BENN: Well nobody should condone the ideology and …

DM: But do you think it’s happening?

HILARY BENN: Well there is a process it seems that leads to grooming and people may have grievances about foreign policy but the answer to that is not to put a bomb on your back or pick up a Kalashnikov and kill innocent people. I  think the truth is, as we’ve learnt for example from the terrible attack in France that took place and also we mustn’t forget all of those who lost their lives in the mosque bombing in Kuwait – and this shows how widespread the threat is – that often family members won’t know what’s going on and certainly in the case of Leeds, there was huge shock when the identity of the 7/7 bombers was discovered and the most important thing is that this terror is intended to try and frighten and divide us and one of the most important things we can do as communities wherever we are in the world is to come together, not to allow that to happen and to stand up, as I say, against an evil ideology but do you know what, it’s going to take a long time to do that.

DM: Indeed.  In retrospect, do you think the UK and others backing of the Arab Spring looks like a bit of a mistake in that looking into that vast region, one of the countries that seems to be doing best in the fight against extremism, against Islamic extremism, are the Egyptians who of course pulled back from their own Arab spring, Tunisia seems to be tilting the other way.

HILARY BENN: Well look, in the end I think people living in countries will take their own decisions about how they wish to be governed and what was a common feature across those Arab countries where the Arab Spring took place is that people wanted to see a change but at the same time we see there is a struggle going on and in the case of Egypt, Mohammed Morsi was elected and then sought to impose a version of his Islamic beliefs on the country and the part of Egypt that was secular was not very happy about this and they came out on the streets and protested and I guess that is that struggle being played out.  But in the case of Tunisia, Ben Ali was in effect overthrown, there’s been a change of government last autumn, a new Prime Minister, a new government which is secular led and we should also be standing in solidarity with the people of Tunisia because they too are facing this.  

DM: My next guest is Nigel Farage from UKIP and he’s going to tell me that the migrant crisis, the number of migrants coming in to particularly southern Europe and then perhaps making their way up to the United Kingdom eventually, that within that there is a danger that terrorists will be getting through, mingling in with those masses.

HILARY BENN: Well it is very important that as people arrive in Europe that they are properly documented, they are fingerprinted so one can identify who are asylum seekers and who are economic migrants but the truth is there is a risk everywhere in all parts of the world and Nigel Farage may well say that we should leave the European Union, I think he is fundamentally mistaken and the lesson of what is going on at the moment is these flows of people we will see regardless of relationships that countries have with each other.  The only way we are going to deal with this is if we cooperate and cooperating in Europe is a really important part of that.

DM: Okay, Shadow Foreign Secretary, thank you very much indeed, Hilary Benn there.