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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: When the Prime Minister meets Donald Tusk, as we’ve just been discussing, in Downing Street this evening, migration looks set to be top of the agenda.  Mr Cameron will set out changes to strengthen the proposed emergency brake on EU migrants claiming benefit payments in the UK but that’s against a backdrop of a deepening migration crisis across Europe.  Just yesterday as many as 40 people were drowned when their boat capsized enroute to Greece.  Well I’m joined now by the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn, a very good morning to you Mr Benn.  Two interconnected issues I’ve touched on there, I think we should start with the deaths of those migrants, a snapshot, a continuing snapshot I guess of some of the awful things that are happening.  Is there anything that Britain could change to alter those deaths at sea?

HILARY BENN: Well all of our thoughts are with the families of those who died and no parent would get into a boat with their children to make that perilous journey, particularly in the winter when the seas are rougher and the chances of a safe crossing are more uncertain, unless they were desperate.  What is the most important thing that could be done?  It is to bring peace to the long-suffering people of Syria and that is why the talks that are due to start in Geneva are so important and I want to pay tribute to Stefan de Mistura and everyone in the UN who have worked tirelessly to bring together those who are opposing President Assad and the Syrian government.  Now it looks as if they are not actually going to be in the same room, there will be what’s called proximity talks where you shuttle back and forth but what’s the first thing I would like to see those talks achieve?  A ceasefire.  Because that is what is continuing to drive people inside Syria and half the population have had to flee their homes to over the border and then when things are tough, and I’ve been Jordan myself and talked to Syrian refugees, I think we understand what it is that drives people then to come and find a better future.  

DM: But within the ceasefire you get other developments, of course the London Conference on aid to Syria, then that could be more effective.  

HILARY BENN: It could and the British people in their generosity through the tax that we pay means that Britain is the second largest contributor to the humanitarian crisis and where is the bulk of the responsibility being taken?  It is in Turkey, over two million refugees and in Lebanon, over a million, Jordan 630,000 is the official figure, Iraq.  That’s about four million people that they are having to provide shelter to and the UN says of the big appeal that they made, I think they asked for $8.4 billion and about 3.3 billion has been provided, so the central message it seems to me that needs to come out of that conference is that other countries are going to step up and play their part in making their fair contribution because those countries need that help urgently.

DM: Let me ask you about Labour’s part in keeping the UK in the European Union.  We’re told as a party that you are in favour of Britain staying in…

HILARY BENN: We certainly are.  

DM: Well we are told that but there’s the Prime Minister with these knife-edge negotiations and it’s being said you could give him a bit more support from the Labour side.  Is the reality that there are elements right up to the leadership that are pretty lukewarm about the European Union?    

HILARY BENN: No, Dermot, that is not the reality.  Labour is firmly in support of Britain remaining in the European Union.  Why?  Because what has membership given us?  It’s given us jobs, investment, growth, it helps our security and actually it has amplified Britain’s voice in the world so as the Shadow Foreign Secretary I think Britain is in a stronger position because we are part of this alliance and I know from personal experience, the Climate Change Talks, the fact that Europe is able to put on the table an offer as a group of nations is a really powerful force.

DM: Okay, so with the Prime Minister meeting Donald Tusk this very evening, you’re going ra-ra-ra-ra Prime Minister, best of luck, we the Labour party are four square behind you?


HILARY BENN: Well what we said at the last election on this specific question of access to benefits is we think there should be a qualifying period because the issue I think for the British people is …  

DM: So you are not that far apart, so are you… ?

HILARY BENN: People should be contributing first before they take out but I would also say this to the Prime Minister, to have brought the whole future of our relationship with the European Union down to this one issue shows I think that the Prime Minister is missing the bigger picture.  The reason why the Labour party is united in saying that Britain’s place is and should remain in the European Union is because of all these wider benefits. This is the century in which, as the refugee crisis demonstrates, how are the nations of the world going to deal with challenges like this, whether it is the mass movement of people, climate change, security, the problems we’ve seen in Ukraine, you do that by working together with your neighbours and the idea that you would say well if I don’t get this one thing in the perfect form that I’m seeking, we’re off, is not actually the leadership we should expect from our Prime Minister.

DM: Can I ask you another question applying from Syria, we’ve been discussing the situation there and everyone remembers your electrifying speech as it was described in some quarters, in the House of Commons last year, on military action in Syria.  Do you think you might face the same dilemma within your party about Libya?  We are hearing today there are deep concerns about ISIS embedding itself now in Libya and the British government is considering scoping out, taking military action there.

HILARY BENN: Well nothing has been, as far as I’m aware, said publicly or reported to the House of Commons.  Look, the threat from Daesh and its affiliates is to be found sadly in too many places now, not just Syria and Iraq.  We saw the downing of the Russian airliner over the Sinai, we’ve seen over in Nigeria what Boko Haram have been doing and there is a problem with a Daesh presence in Libya but at the moment …

DM: But it is just a direct question, would you support as you did in Syria, British military action in Libya if the assessment from the UK government is that it is required there?  

HILARY BENN: Well there is a lot of ifs in that question, Dermot.  The fact is, there is no proposition, there is no proposal, there is no UN resolution and I think we’re a long way away from that.  

DM: Okay and another quick, very quick question obviously on voting Trident, will you stand out on a limb there, will you be against the leadership if it comes to a vote on that?

HILARY BENN: Well I don't think it’s a question of standing out on a limb, the Labour party’s policy currently is to support our nuclear deterrent and there is a review, there is a defence review going on and ultimately it would be for the Labour party conference to decide whether our policy of over 30 years is going to change.  Why do I think that we need to maintain the deterrent?  Because I want a world in which there are no nuclear weapons but do you get there by just handing yours in and nobody else gets rid of theirs?  To give a very practical example, would you feel safe Dermot in a world in which the only country that had nuclear weapons was North Korea and everyone else had disarmed?  Well I’ll tell you, I wouldn’t feel safe in those circumstances and I think nor would the British people.  And the second argument is that the world out there is changing, there are new security threats, who can say what they may be in ten, twenty, thirty years’ time so I think it should be part of our security as a nation, defending the British people by saying to any potential aggressor – you really shouldn’t think about that.

DM: I think we just heard some lines from a potential speech from you, Shadow Foreign Secretary, in the House of Commons should it come to a vote on Trident.  Thank you very much indeed Mr Benn, very good to see you.