ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So Syrian and apparently Egyptian passports have been found near the remains of two of the suspected Paris terrorists.  Greek officials say they may have arrived in Europe via the island of Leros and its prompted reports this morning in several newspapers that they were part of the migrant influx into the EU from Syria.  I am joined now by the Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn, a very good morning to you Mr Benn, there are so many dimensions to explore but let’s start with that one I mentioned.   If it proves right, many of those who were warning this would happen and elements of ISIL themselves said they would try to attempt this reach to infiltrate terrorists into the heart of Europe.

HILARY BENN: Dermot, can I say first of all that the most important thing today is that we continue to stand in solidarity with the people of Paris and the people of France in the face of this barbaric brutality and as they mourn the loss of mothers and fathers and sons and daughters, it is a terrible event.  On this specific question you have raised, we need to continue to act to protect ourselves.  The UNHCR undertakes screening so for those who will come to Britain from the region but we also have to remember something else, that the vast majority of those who are fleeing are fleeing this brutality, the brutality of the Syrian civil war, the barrel bombs of President Assad and also the violence of ISIL and we mustn’t lose our humanity in all of this.

DM: But it is an opportunity, is it not, for clever intelligent terrorists to infiltrate, you’re right of course, that flood of migrants, of genuine refugees fleeing that awful terrorism, but it is an opportunity is it not to disguise yourself amongst them?

HILARY BENN: Well they may seek to do that and we need to acknowledge the extraordinary and selfless job that our security services do to keep us safe, they have disrupted a large number of plots since 7/7 but there is a threat and as the government says, the likelihood of a terrorist attack in Britain is high and we need to continue to safeguard ourselves, safeguard our people and take every step that we can in the face of those who would try and kill us as we saw in Paris on Friday night.

DM: And this issue of solidarity with the French, well the French take the view that of course ISIL is a major threat within Syria itself and therefore are taking military action against them.  As part of that solidarity is it not now time for the United Kingdom to say we will join you in attacking ISIL wherever it occurs and that includes in Syria?

HILARY BENN: Well as you know we are already participating in this big coalition to try and end the threat from ISIL Daesh which is the immediate priority in Iraq and we saw last week the Peshmerga, the Kurdish forces, retook Sinjar, that was with support from the air and also troops on the ground.  The position in Syria is different because there is this terrible civil war going on and I think that the thing that we need to do as quickly as we can is to bring that civil war to an end.  I am encouraged by the negotiations that have been taking place in Vienna this weekend because there are the outlines of a potential peace process emerging and if that happens then all of the parties can turn their attention on ISIL Daesh.  I think the second difference in relation to Syria is everyone would acknowledge that they will only ultimately be defeated by a comprehensive plan which deals with their finances but also defeats them ideologically as well as …

DM:  But it seems arbitrary, given that our allies are attacking ISIL in Syria, that we’re not joining them does it not?  Is it still the position of the Labour party that it would not support a debate, a discussion within the House of Commons that calls for such an extension to take place, is it still the position of the Labour party that you don’t think it would be productive?

HILARY BENN: We’ve said to the government consistently throughout, if you have a proposal then bring it to the House of Commons then we will consider it, we will judge it against a number of criteria but as the Conservative chaired Foreign Affairs Select Committee reported recently, you need to have a comprehensive plan.  There has to be a comprehensive plan if you are really going to end the threat from ISIL Daesh and that needs to come forward.  If the government wants to bring that forward then we would look it but you are not going to defeat ISIL Daesh in Syria just by dropping bombs.

DM: So you don’t think anything has changed here, that this has changed this discussion?  The Home Secretary is saying this morning that she wants consensus on this very issue.

HILARY BENN: Well I think we would all wish to achieve consensus but the government has to bring forward proposals which would command support in the House of Commons and as the Foreign Affairs Select Committee said, they are not persuaded at the moment the government has yet come up with a comprehensive plan.

DM: I think people would be puzzled, Shadow Foreign Secretary, at what nuance you want.  Presumably to do the same to ISIL in Syria as is being done in Iraq, is that the proposals?

HILARY BENN: Well it isn’t entirely because in Iraq there are forces on the ground that are being supported by actions in the air and of course we are already taking some …

DM: Well there are forces on the ground in Syria too, a multiplicity of forces.  

HILARY BENN: Well that Dermot is indeed part of the problem and there are two things going on in Syria.  One is the civil war and we need to bring that to an end because of the great suffering of the Syrian people that’s led half the population to flee their homes.  Connected with it is the threat from ISIL Daesh which is thriving in the vacuum that has been created by the Syrian civil war and the last thing I’d say is that we shouldn’t forget that we are already providing support for operations in Syria, the RAF is flying surveillance missions and it is also undertaking refuelling and I think all of those things are right and proper.

DM: Jeremy Corbyn apparently cancelled a speech yesterday in which he was going to look at the whole crisis in which he was going to say that part of the problem is caused by Britain’s interventionist foreign policy in the past, do you support that, do you stick by that?

HILARY BENN: Well if you take Afghanistan and what happened after 9/11, there were what, I think 67 British nationals were killed in the attack on the Twin Towers.  It was organised from Afghanistan by Al-Qaeda and I think we were right, and it was the overwhelming view of the House of Commons and indeed of the British people in the wake of that, we were right to take the action to deal with the threat from Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.  

DM: But what about Iraq, you regret Iraq?

HILARY BENN: Well in Iraq the decision at the time was taken on the basis of what we thought was the case about weapons of mass destruction, it proved not to be the case subsequently.  Had that been known at the time then the Iraq War would not have taken place or Britain would not have participated in it but I think we have to recognise something else, Dermot, is this is ideology which in one sense goes back to the 7th century, it is an ideology which is bitterly hostile to our way of life, our democracy.  To describe those young people in the Bataclan concert hall on Friday night as apostates which is what ISIL Daesh has done I think tells us everything we need to know about their ideology and the threat that they present to us and we need an effective plan to deal with the threat from ISIL Daesh.  The Middle East is a very complicated and involved part of the world.

DM: More of the practicalities and the Investigatory Powers Bill, we’re going to be hearing from Lord Carlile, he has written about it in the papers today about expediting that Bill, getting it on to the statute books as quickly as possible. Do you think he is right about that, things have changed.

HILARY BENN: I think it is important, really important that the police and the security services have the powers they need in order to continue to try and keep us safe.  We know the technology has changed, we know that those people who would commit those crimes and are committing them are using those new techniques and the debate is how you balance that with protection of our privacy and I think what the public wants to know is that effective action is being taken to protect them …

DM: Is that a yes or a no?

HILARY BENN: We support the Bill.  There are some questions about judicial oversight as Andy Burnham, the Shadow Home Secretary, was saying last week but we support the need to update our legislation and we should get on with it but this is another issue on which we need to achieve a consensus in the House of Commons.  

DM: Shadow Foreign Secretary thank you very much indeed, Hilary Benn there.