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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, a major review into Britain’s airport capacity is expected to be delivered this week with both Heathrow and Gatwick vying for expansion.  It’s a political hot potato of course with a number of cabinet ministers constituencies on the Heathrow flight path.  Before the 2010 election the Prime Minister ruled out categorically a new runway at Heathrow but there was no such promise last month.  Well earlier this week I spoke to the bosses of each of the airports, Heathrow and Gatwick, about why the Commission should choose them.  Well first up is John Holland-Kaye, the Chief Executive of Heathrow.

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: In 2010 both Gatwick and Heathrow expansion were ruled out but it was this Prime Minister and I think Justine Greening who set up the Airports Commission three years ago because they recognise that Britain needs to be an aviation hub, as we have been for decades. We have been the biggest port in the world for 350 years but we are starting to fall behind and that’s why the Airports Commission was set up and things have change.  We have changed our plans to meet the Prime Minister, he doesn’t need to make a U-turn because we have made the U-turn, we have changed our plans so that we are right for the environment as well as right for the economy.  

DM: Well you say that but you haven’t changed your plans in that you’re not going for expansion and no Prime Minister likes to backtrack publicly.    

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: Well the Prime Minister set up the Airports Commission, it was his plan and with Heathrow expansion we can deliver what any Prime Minister wants – jobs and growth as well as a sustainable solution.  We’ve changed our plans so that we can meet air quality limits, we can meet climate change targets and even with expansion, fewer people will be impacted by aircraft noise than today, that’s a deliverable plan and we’ve got that plan because we had the time with the Airports Commission to work on it, to listen to local communities, make sure we met their needs, made sure we met the Prime Minister’s needs, this is an entirely new plan designed to meet the Prime Minister’s concerns about the environment.  We can deliver what’s right for the economy and what’s right for the environment.

DM: But it’s not just the Prime Minister is it?  It’s the current Mayor of London, his successor if there is going to be another Conservative mayor and if Zac Goldsmith is selected to run for that, Justine Greening you’ve mentioned, it’s a formidable array of politicians saying no to Heathrow.  

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: Well actually there are lots of politicians who are sitting behind the Airports Commission.  They recognise that this is not just about concrete, this is about the future of our country.  Are we going to be right at the heart of the global economy as we have been for hundreds of years or are we going to through inaction on an essential issue, fall behind our European rivals?  That is what is happening, Britain is falling behind and it’s not just about getting people to the growing markets of the world, it’s about exports as well.  Heathrow is the country’s biggest port, more than a quarter of all this country’s exports go by air through Heathrow and if we don’t expand Heathrow we won’t be able to export our way out of our current economic situation.  If we want to tackle our balance of payments deficit we need to expand Heathrow.  If we want to rebalance the economy north and south, we need to expand Heathrow.  This is the prize, it meets all of the objectives of the politicians.   

DM: Okay but if you are dispassionately arguing for the good of Britain and the expansion of trade, without your Heathrow hat on you’ve got to admit that Gatwick expansion would be good for jobs and growth.  

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: Well no, it won’t be as good as Heathrow expansion.  Heathrow expansion delivers four times as many jobs and over twice the economic benefits, 180,000 jobs by expanding Heathrow all across the UK, in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, the north and the south and £211 billion of economic growth for the UK and that’s because we are connecting Britain with the growing markets of the world.  We have seen over the last ten years that all the growth in the world is in Asia, North and South America, they are markets you can only get to by air and airlines can only make those flights work from hub airports like Heathrow and they have chosen if they can’t get into Heathrow to go, not to Gatwick or Stansted or Luton but to go to Paris and Frankfurt, our competitors. The French and the Germans are gaining at Britain’s expense because we haven’t taken the decisions we need to make on airport capacity.  This is the chance to do something about it.  

DM: But what happens if you don’t get it, if you don’t get an extra runway or an extended one, have you been crying wolf a bit? You have been talking or your predecessors have been talking about trying to expand Heathrow for many, many years but the business still seems to get better and better.  

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: Well I’m glad you say we’re getting better, we are getting better. I’ve just come back from Prague where we collected an award as the best airport in Europe and an award for the most sustainable airport in Europe, that shows how far we have come but of course we are not getting to the places we need to get to.  British business people need to get to more cities in China with more flights, more cities in South America and that’s what we cannot deliver.  We have seen in the last ten years while Heathrow has been full what the cost is of not expanding.  We’re seeing fewer flights to the regional cities and the national cities in the UK and few flights than our competitors in France and Germany to the growing markets in the world …

DM: Sorry to interject Mr Holland-Kaye but an expanded Gatwick could cater for those extra flights to those regional cities within the UK.  

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: For the last ten years they have not delivered the growth with flights to the growing markets of the world.  They have shown that only a hub airport like Heathrow can do that.  I have 30 airlines that want to fly from Heathrow, they could fly from any other UK airport  if they chose to but they can’t make flights to those growing markets work from any other UK airport and instead they are going to France and Germany.  This is our opportunity to change that, only Heathrow expansion will allow us to get to the growing markets of the world and keep Britain where it should be, right in the heart of global economy.

DM: But what about the environment?  There is no getting away from that, you are in a heavily populated area, the air pollution levels are already pretty high, a third runway only puts them even higher and indeed some say you will breach your limits.  

JOHN HOLLAND-KAYE: Well absolutely not and the Airports Commission have shown that, they have tested our plan, it is an entirely new plan and they have demonstrated that even with expansion we can meet climate change targets, we can meet the air quality targets and fewer people will be impacted by aircraft noise in the future than today.  That’s because we designed our plan to meet the needs of the environment, to meet the needs of the politicians, to meet the needs of local people and to deliver to local people the prize. Those people most affected by expansion get the biggest benefits from expansion, 40,000 new highly skilled local jobs just here at the airport, 10,000 apprenticeships, the opportunity to end youth unemployment in local areas. That is a huge prize for local communities and that is why we have so much support from the local community for Heathrow expansion. That has never happened before, it shows how much we have changed and it shows that this plan is now deliverable.  

DM: That was John Holland-Kaye the Chief Executive of Heathrow talking up their chances and their offering.  I also spoke to Stewart Wingate, the Chief Executive of Gatwick and this is his view.  
STEWART WINGATE:  I think this is a great opportunity actually to have a competitive airports network, that was the whole reason why the Heathrow monopoly was previously broken up to get the airports in separate ownership so that you could actually have competition between the airports and between the airlines and of course if you achieve that as we have in recent years where you see big passenger growth coming in to Gatwick with more choice of destinations and more airlines for passengers at very good fares so for us this is a great opportunity to really follow through and have competition in the market and have the airports and airlines vie with one another.    

DM: But isn’t it the case that only something like 5% of your passengers actually transfer on to other flights?  I mean Heathrow is the place that international passengers come into and then transfer onwards, it’s a hub.  

STEWART WINGATE: The vast majority of our passengers are international, we have about 20% of our passengers flying long haul.  Just last week we announced new flights to Canada starting next year with West Jet, we’ve got the Norwegian flights going across into JFK and LA and we serve all of the top business destinations of Europe.  Increasingly as you look forward of course the way in which we travel is changing and that’s why Gatwick is actually the future proofed option.  If you look at how we travel to Europe both on leisure and business it’s predominantly on the low cost carriers and that’s ideal for Gatwick and then if you look longer haul, with the new generation of aircraft, the Dream Liners, the Boeing 787s and the A350s, they have less seats on board, you don’t need these big flows of transfer passengers any longer and that’s why we are seeing a lot of success in getting more long haul traffic coming into Gatwick now that we are in separate ownership.  

DM: That’s just part of the argument we know you have been making to the Davies Commission, when it does make its recommendations – because there are two Heathrow options there aren’t there, if it’s one of them, what does Gatwick do?

STEWART WINGATE:  Well I think for me this is all about trying to choose a deliverable runway option.  Heathrow has been given the green light several times in the past but always it fails and it fails for the same reason.  It’s in the wrong location, it has enormous environmental impacts on the west of London impacting hundreds of thousands of people.  This time around with Gatwick in the race, now that we are in separate ownership, we actually have a deliverable option on the table.  

DM: So basically you’re saying it’s too difficult to go for Heathrow, this huge political factor involved there?

STEWART WINGATE: Well history tells us time and time again Dermot that it’s just impossible to get expansion through at Heathrow.  It would have happened long before now if it was going to happen so this is the first time that Gatwick has made its case and we’ve got a very strong case.  The cost of the airport expansion is less than half of that of Heathrow, it can be fully privately financed, we're not looking for any taxpayer subsidy while Heathrow is looking for £5.7 billion of taxpayers money we don’t need a penny.  Of course we can get on and get the runway delivered quicker, we can have it open by 2025 and all with a tiny fraction of the environmental impact.  

DM: But if Davies does recommend Heathrow, do you let it lie or do you fight on?  Do you take it to the courts?

STEWART WINGATE: I think if Davies recommends Heathrow it is a very disappointing day for everybody in the UK because what that will inevitably mean is more delay for the next new runway.

DM: But is it the end of it from Gatwick’s point of view or is there a chance of judicial review, to take it to court?

STEWART WINGATE: I think if Heathrow get the recommendation from Davies we’ll just have more delay and what we’ll do from a Gatwick perspective is stand ready to build the runway when finally the support comes round for Gatwick but what we are very much expecting next week is that now that Davies has had the opportunity to look at all of the factors involved in this, he can see the benefits of having a competitive market, he can see the benefits of a privately financed scheme down at Gatwick and he can see the benefits of getting on and getting a runway delivered.  It’s all about getting a deliverable option, that’s what Gatwick has to offer.

DM: I’ve looked at the top end of the Davies recommendations or the figures that Davies has when it comes to Heathrow and it is delivering more jobs and a bigger boost to the economy.  You’re saying that the argument for Gatwick is that you can actually do it, it doesn’t run into as much political flak but you must admit that just on pure economic grounds, Heathrow is better.

STEWART WINGATE: The argument for Gatwick is really straightforward, if you deliver the runway then you can deliver the economic benefit and you can deliver the jobs.  Clearly at Heathrow if you don’t deliver the runway, then there is no economic benefit, there are no jobs.  The other key advantage of Gatwick is that we actually distribute the growth of air travel right across the UK so for example if Gatwick expands what you have is two million more passengers a year travelling through Manchester Airport, two million more passengers travelling through the Scottish airports a year as opposed to if Heathrow were to expand.  What Gatwick is really proposing is a network of competing airports up and down the length and breadth of the UK so more often than not you’ll go to your local airport to take your flight.  

DM: And on the political side of things I suppose a big boost to your campaign is the fact that Mr Cameron categorically ruled out Heathrow in 2010.

STEWART WINGATE: The Prime Minister was absolutely categoric back in 2010 and if you look around the cabinet table there are many members of the cabinet who are adamantly against Heathrow and I think as we look forward into the Mayoral election it virtually seems to be that if you want to compete in that election you have to rule out Heathrow.  That is why we have to get behind the deliverable option which is Gatwick.

DM: Stewart Wingate, making the Gatwick case and the Davies Commission is expected to make its recommendations perhaps in the middle of this week.