ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, a bit earlier on this programme the former Prime Minister Tony Blair told me the country needs an opposition capable of holding the government to account.  Well it’s after a week in which nearly all of Jeremy Corbyn’s front bench team resigned and pressure for the Labour leader to stand down has almost reached boiling point but Mr Corbyn has insisted this morning he will stand in any leadership challenge. I am joined now by the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, a very good morning to you Mr McDonnell.  We are also hearing from Jeremy Corbyn and presumably from you, you are going to reach out to those Labour MPs that oppose his leadership but what form will that take?

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well it’s interesting, there’s been a new initiative this morning by Len McClusky, the General Secretary of UNITE.  He suggested that the unions, the affiliated unions of the Labour party, try to mediate an agreement now between the Parliamentary Labour Party and Jeremy and in that way calm the situation down because we feel that if we can just calm things down a bit and get some rational discussion going we can find a way forward that unites the party but I think it’s a great initiative, we should try it.  

DM: But do you take on board that Tony Blair point and others you don’t take on board from Tony Blair, but the country almost needs a functioning opposition in these troubled times and you’re not it?   

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well that’s why I think I’m asking people, and I have done for the last few days because to be frank after the European referendum result there seems to have been a sort of mass hysteria in parliament in all the political parties as far as I can see, Conservative and Labour.  Can I just say to people, just calm down now and what we should do is have a proper discussion about a way forward and people should recognise their responsibilities as MPs, particularly from the Parliamentary Labour Party, to launch that opposition, perform that opposition against the Conservative government.  Not just opposition for opposition’s sake, testing the government’s ideas about what happens now after the European referendum result, working constructively with the government wherever we can but making sure that we put the country’s interests at our heart.  At the moment there seems to be more interest in what the future of the party than there is in the country.  I think both things are important but the most important responsibility we have is to the country.  

DM: How on earth can the leader start reaching out in all ways to the public, even to his own MPs, when we hear you and others are more or less keeping him under house arrest, you are not allowing him to meet even with the deputy leader?  

JOHN MCDONNELL: [Laughs] I know, I’ve heard these stories.  This is becoming farcical.  Only last week some elements of the coup plotters were briefing the media that I was trying to supplant Jeremy, that I was launching a coup against Jeremy.  This week the story is I am forcing him to stay.  Both can’t be right, neither are right.  It just shows you the sort of febrile atmosphere there is at the moment within politics but I will just come back to the serious point.  Everybody should calm down now, think about yes, the future of our party but more importantly think about the future of our country and in that way I think as MPs we have got to do our jobs and that means, yes, in the Labour party making sure we have an effective opposition, working together but also where necessary, yes, working on a bipartisan basis with the government too because we are facing some serious economic difficulties now as a result of the Brexit vote.  

DM: But just on that, to scotch that rumour, this idea that the Deputy Leader Tom Watson isn’t being allowed one on one in a room with Jeremy Corbyn, can you say to me right now you will give Tom and Jeremy a call and put them together today to have a free and frank discussion?

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well it’s not for me to do that but I know that Jeremy is meeting any individual MP that wants to come and see him, that includes Tom but he has been doing that all through the last nine months, he’s had an open door policy.  He has seen more members of the Parliamentary Labour Party I think than any other leader of the Labour party and he will continue to do that and he has made that offer time and time again.  Look, the whole point about Jeremy Corbyn is he is a different type of leader, he’s not the sort of Tony Blair type leader – and I’m glad actually because you then don’t go into mistakes like Iraq.  What he is is a caring compassionate person who tries to bring people together, he wants to resolve conflicts and prevent conflicts, he wants to mediate with people but don’t underestimate he is a leader.  He has got a steel about him that once he has made his mind up he will stick to that decision and that’s what he’s doing at the moment because he respects the mandate that he got only nine months ago from an overwhelming majority of our party members and it is them under our constitution who decide who the leader is.  

DM: Well that’s the difference you’re telling me between the perception and the reality of Jeremy Corbyn but what about you and your role behind the scenes there?  I have just had Heidi Alexander on the programme, the former Shadow Health Secretary and she is saying you are a kind of smiling benign puppet master – I put words in her mouth but Mr Corbyn defers to you, he has to go through John McDonnell, she said, you couldn’t get any decisions from him.

JOHN MCDONNELL: Oh I am really disappointed at that, I really liked Heidi, I just have nothing but time for her but I’m really disappointed at that.  Jeremy and I have worked together for nearly forty years, he’s my closest friend in politics, he is that caring compassionate politician that makes him so attractive to so many people, a different type of politician, that’s why I admire him so much.  He is his own man, he makes his own decisions, full stop.  He is the leader and as a result of that I follow him, I just try and do my best.  What they try to do is divide and rule and these rumours and gossip about myself I find, well to be honest it brings politics into the gutter and I’m not getting into that.  If there are differences of policy let’s hammer that out and have a proper discussion.  If it’s issues around electability let’s have that discussion as well but I’ll tell you, all the facts point towards on policy Jeremy is taking us where the British people want to go and in terms of electability on his election record so far he’s been an incredibly successful leader both in terms of parliamentary by elections, mayoral elections and local council elections.  So let’s have a ration debate rather than all this gossip and snide talk like this, I don’t like that, that isn’t what I went into politics…

DM: But just be explicit for us, Shadow Chancellor, because we’ve got the velvet glove, the reaching out going on but there’s a hand of steel underneath the glove isn’t there?  Just let’s hear it explicitly from you, if challenged Mr Corbyn will stand in another leadership election?

JOHN MCDONNELL: Yes.  Yes, we’re trying to say there is no need for a leadership election, let’s take up Len McClusky’s in his offer to mediate and resolve this amicably but yes, if there is a leadership election Jeremy will stand, I will be supporting him and I will chair his campaign committee, I have offered him to do that and we’ll have a democratic debate but what I am also saying it must be amicable, it must be about the policies and all the issues but do it on a friendly basis.  In last years’ leadership election all the candidates got on pretty well together, we call ourselves comrades in the Labour party and I know it sounds a bit old fashioned but it is to mark out that we are campaigning together and we do it as friends and I think that’s the style we’ve got to go for and that’s Jeremy’s style to be honest.  Above all else that’s the sort of approach he has to politics.

DM: Well you don’t seem to be calling everyone comrade in the Labour party, your former leader Tony Blair, apparently Mr Corbyn and you are waiting for the Chilcot Report to come out on Wednesday and you apparently are going to crucify him for being a war criminal.

JOHN MCDONNELL: I’ve never said that. I’ve said all the way through in the last few weeks we’ve got to await for Chilcot.  What I have been saying is that actually it’s more important that we look at the processes that led up to the Iraq war rather than any individual role or responsibility because I want to make sure that we put the processes in place so that we never, ever make such a grave mistake again because I think it was.   

DM: Do you think Mr Blair may have questions to answer in the International Criminal Court?

JOHN MCDONNELL: I want to see the Chilcot Report, nobody can comment on this until we see the report itself and I’m hoping the report will be thorough and as I say, for me the importance is not Tony Blair or any individuals, it is about the processes so that we never, ever get into this tragic, tragic mess again with such loss of life.   

DM: Okay Shadow Chancellor, thank you very much indeed.  John McDonnell there.