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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, David Cameron ended his week of European negotiations with a hint from the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, that a deal may be possible on EU reforms so is it all looking quite positive for the campaign to stay in the EU?  Well the former Conservative Cabinet Minister John Redwood joins me now from Wokingham, a very good morning to you Mr Redwood.  Are you encouraged by Angela Merkel saying wherever there is a desire there is also a way?  

JOHN REDWOOD: Well let’s hope that’s right, that we have to make sure that we are asking for enough and many of us from the Conservative party and many other parties, feel this is about restoring our democracy.  We think that far too many powers were passed to the European Union, particularly in the last three treaties in recent years and what I want to do is live in a world where if the British people vote for change, they vote for a different policy, then their parliament can put that policy in.  At the last general election people voted for much better control over our borders, lower levels of migration and welfare changes.  Many of the changes they want are not legal under the current treaties and laws in Brussels and that’s why we need to change the relative power of the British parliament to the Brussels institutions.  

DM: Okay, so what is enough?  Do you think Mr Cameron isn’t asking for enough?  

JOHN REDWOOD: Well we don’t know. I hope he does ask for the rights things, he is going to make his formal requests at the June council, I think he is very wisely going around talking to other leaders at the moment to see where they are coming from, to see if they understand what the British electorate have just been telling both the British government and our continental partners and the British people have said very strongly by the way they voted that they want more control over their own lives and they want their own British parliament to be able to reduce migration, change welfare, do many other things which are no longer legal or possible under the current arrangement so we need to change the framework.  We need to get back to a world as we used to live in where Britain could veto proposals it didn’t like, where Britain had an override which seems to have got lost on the way.

DM: So he has to go and ask in June and beyond that, for treaty change?

JOHN REDWOOD: I think it will need treaty change, I don't think we can have the relationship we want under the current treaties and the Conservative party in parliament opposed strongly the Nice, Amsterdam and Lisbon Treaties, we said that they sacrificed too much of our right to self-government, they gave away far too many vetoes over things that really mattered and so of course when we get into office with a majority, we wish to change that and the partners on the continent have to understand that one of the main principles of British democracy, so that you have a parliamentary democracy is that a past parliament can’t bind a future parliament, we have to be able to change the things that the British people don’t like but where they are locked into treaties and European law, we’re powerless to change them unless David Cameron gets this new relationship which allows us to do so.

DM: So you agree with Liam Fox, the former Defence Secretary and your colleague writing in one of the papers today, Dr Fox saying it’s not just tinkering that’s needed but a complete restructuring of European institutions, it needs that much change.  

JOHN REDWOOD: Well maybe or maybe we just need a new relationship with it.  If we just left we would solve all these problems because we’d have a lot more money to spend on our own purposes, we could negotiate our own trade arrangements with the rest of the world and I am quite sure none of our trade or jobs is at any kind of risk with the European Union because they sell us much more than we sell them.  It’s complete nonsense to suppose, as some of the pro-Europeans do, that the day after we left Germany would say we’re not selling you any more cars and once Germany accepts the proposition, as the German government does, that they want to carry on selling us cars without tariff, so they accept the proposition that we can sell cars back to them without tariff.  So that the trade and jobs are not at risk but I am very happy to try and do it by agreement and negotiation.  Britain needs a new relationship because we’re not in the Euro, we’re not going to be in the political union, they are now centralising for their own reasons to try and make their currency work, Britain as a non-euro member needs a much looser relationship with this organisation.

DM: Do you think it can happen then?  What you are describing there, you describe what’s going on in the heart of the eurozone and so many other problems, to Ms Merkel and so many others Mr Cameron’s requests must seem slightly trivial I suppose.  Do you think that something as fundamental as you are describing can ever actually happen?

JOHN REDWOOD: Yes, I’m sure it can and I think it will because I think it is the will of the British people.  We want to trade with them, be friends with them, have all kinds of co-operative agreements with them but we don’t wish to be governed by them.  The reason why any British Prime Minister would have to tackle this issue in the next five years is he logic of the euro.  All the continentals are now queuing up to say they want more central government, they want more political union to try and make their currency work, Britain couldn’t conceivably be part of that, the British people would never vote for that in a referendum or an election.  So let’s get it sorted out now and in a way we are being kind to our partners in Europe by saying you’ve got a problem, we don’t want to make your problem worse, you must understand that we can’t join you in your political journey so let’s have a friendly trade based relationship now which makes sense for both parties.  

DM: Okay so are you confident you will be campaigning for a yes come 2017 or sooner?  

JOHN REDWOOD: No, of course not, I don’t wish to stay in the current European Union, it doesn’t work for Britain and it doesn’t work for them either and if Britain got out of the current treaty arrangements it would make things a lot easier but if David Cameron can do a really good deal then of course he will have my full support and I don’t wish to do anything to undermine him whilst he tries to get that good deal for Britain and I hope the other side will take the same line but if people keep on saying they are going to come in come what may, it completely undermines the Prime Minister when he is trying to achieve what I am suggesting.  He is trying to get back control for Britain and the British people over things like borders and migration that really matter.  

DM: But what I am trying to get at with a limited amount of time available and also what we have been discussing about the other preoccupations within Europe, do you think that Mr Cameron can do enough to satisfy you?

JOHN REDWOOD: Well I hope he can but I have just given you an honest answer.  I could not conceivably campaign to stay in the current EU or anything like it, I want a trade based relationship where it is primarily about free trade, I think we can have that either in or out of a new agreement but what we cannot carry on with is a system where for example Britain generates hundreds of thousands of new jobs but then sees big waves of migration not just from the EU but from outside the EU through other EU countries into the United Kingdom, the British people made it very clear they want some control over EU migration just as we can control to some extent non-EU migration and that really goes to this fundamental issue of who governs, are we in charge of our own affairs or are we not?

DM: But many people are saying, and not just commentators, many politicians are saying that in reality Mr Cameron isn’t going to get an awful lot, nothing as basic as what you are asking for.  Do you think then that members of the Conservative party and in particular ministerial members of the Conservative party, should be free to campaign how they wish?  They could campaign for a no if they are not satisfied with what is achieved?

JOHN REDWOOD: Well of course they should be free to campaign as they see fit and they will be free to campaign as they see fit.  The only issue is whether they are asked to leave their government positions before they do it or not but this is so fundamental.   What is the point of being a minister if you are charged with for example getting immigration down but the European Union won’t let you do it?  If you are faced with that situation the only honest thing to do is to campaign for a change in the arrangement or to campaign for out.  

DM: Okay, John Redwood, thank you very much indeed, very good to talk to you, John Redwood there live from Wokingham.