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SKY NEWS – MURNAGHAN – 10.00 – 28.02.16 – INTERVIEW WITH JOSE MANUEL BARROSO, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:  Unthinkable, that’s the word used by one of Brussels’ former top bureaucrats about the idea of a second referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union.  It is after some high profile campaigners had suggested that voting out could strengthen the UK’s negotiation position.  Well that man is of course Jose Manuel Barroso who was President of the European Commission until just over a year ago and he joined me from Princeton University in the United States and I started by asking him if he thought the Prime Minister had negotiated a good deal for the UK.  

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO:  I really think he got a good deal.  I mean it was difficult, we have to understand there are 28 countries in the European Union so it’s not so easy to find a consensus and in fact what David Cameron was asking for was a complete exception from the general rules including something that has to do with the very important principle of freedom of movement and the principle of non-discrimination so with this in mind I really believe this was a good deal and now of course I hope that it will be supported by the British people.  

DM: No doubt you are following the arguments in the UK and one of the main ones at the moment is about whether the deal will actually be legally binding because there is no treaty change involved.  

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: No, but there is a commitment to make the treaty change and so it will be legally binding. I don't know the details of debate in Britain but once again I know well how the European Union works and if there is a commitment, the commitment will be respected by all the other member states.

DM: Also another discussion that somehow if Britain were, if the British people were to vote to leave that there might be room for more negotiation and then perhaps a second referendum.

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: Frankly I don’t believe that can happen, really that would be unthinkable.  I would say it is practically impossible.  There was a very tough negotiation, as you know I was in fact saying that before the summit there will be drama, there will be a tough negotiation but at the end I hope there will be an agreement. The agreement was possible but it was not easy to get and now the British people have the final word.  If they want to remain they are most welcome but if the British people want to leave the European Union we have to respect that and I think it will be also not very fair to the voters to try to change their mind afterwards with something new.  So frankly it’s now in the hands of the British citizens to decide if they want or not to remain in the European Union.  

DM: So Mr Cameron says he would invoke the next day Article 50 which would then start the whole process for Britain leaving the European Union if there is a leave vote.  The other 27 members of the European Union would agree with that and encourage him to do it too?  

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: Look, frankly I am not in a position now to deliberate on hypothetical scenarios.  What I know is that there was an agreement between Britain and all the other countries of Europe, now there will be a referendum to say yes or no, if Britain wants to remain or no.  Now about hypothetical scenarios, frankly I’m not properly equipped to answer to that.  

DM: What about the idea, and this was expressed by Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, that he said he is really afraid it might appear a very attractive model for some politicians in Europe to achieve some internal and very egotistical goals, he says.  In other words other countries might have a go at what Britain’s done.

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: Of course, that’s really a danger.  In fact it is already happening, I have heard that the Hungarian government already mentioned the possibility of a referendum on the issue of refugees.  I mean we have nothing, I have nothing against direct democracy but the European Union is not just one political system, one democracy, it is 28 democracies that are constantly negotiating and as you know, if every time there is a tough issue a member says I am going to make a referendum, I want some exceptions, it will not work.  Because at the same time that we have national democracies, it is an international, permanent international negotiation so I really like to think that this British case is exceptional.  Indeed there is some exceptionality already in the British situation, Britain is not a member of the euro, Britain is not a member of Schengen, so there is already now exceptional situation and now after these agreements, Britain got let’s say the confirmation of this exceptional status inside the European Union that was possible because the other countries very much want Britain to remain in the European Union.  But now if we accept it as a kind of a rule then the so-called Europe A La Carte as sometimes we say in Europe, then you have not a procedure of the European Union working properly and I think it will be in everyone’s interests in the European Union that it is not perfect but basically it is so important to give us peace and prosperity, that it works properly.

DM: We know the strains that the European Union is under with the eurozone crisis, the migration crisis of course, would it be further destabilised if Britain left?  

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: Of course.  Not only the stabilisation in terms of institutions but also in more fundamental geopolitical terms.  I think Prime Minister Cameron is absolutely right when he says the vote yes is a matter of national security.  We are facing in Europe very serious challenges, not only from the east with the very assertive and sometimes aggressive Russia, we are also facing instability very close to us in the Mediterranean including the terrorist threat.  So Europe without Britain will be weaker, I know someone is going to be [inaudible] not only be some Eurosceptics in Britain, they will be together with President Putin in Moscow because everything he is trying to do is show that Europe will be divided so in terms of our overall stability and security what is at stake is indeed very, very important.  By the way it is not by some absurd thing that the Americans here where I am now, I am now at Princeton, the Americans are asking the British people to vote yes because for the West in general it would be certainly a defeat if the European Union loses one of its most important members, indeed one of the most important countries in the world.  

DM: And if the UK does vote yes, would you expect it as has been expressed by many in the European Union, that Britain would then take a more active and central role within the European Union?

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: Yes and in fact during my ten years really in the European Commission, the European Union and also before as Prime Minister and as Foreign Minister for many years, Britain was leading.  Even Mrs Thatcher, she was considered a eurosceptic but frankly Mrs Thatcher was extremely important for the enlargement process, for the internal market meeting and so on.  For Blair also for the climate change talks, it would be impossible for the European Union – and I can tell you because I was leading the European Commission at that time – it would be impossible for the European Union to agree on such an ambitious climate policy without British leadership and also David Cameron, with [inaudible] doing better regulation, fire regulation, owes a lot to British leadership so I would like to see, that’s my personal opinion, Britain at the centre of the European Union.  Let me tell you, I am coming from Portugal as you know but I think most medium sized or smaller countries in Europe would like to have that, we would like to have a Europe without hegemony so it is important that Germany but also France, Britain and other bigger countries in Europe cooperate and that they support this common, let’s say, enterprise we have.  Britain is one of the biggest shareholders in the European Union and it would be a pity, I really believe, for all of Europe and also for Britain I suppose that if we don’t defend our own common good together.  

DM: Last thing Mr Barroso, you mentioned the refugee crisis, the immigration crisis, do you think that might have an influence on the vote in the UK which takes place in the early summer, if the British people see hundreds of thousands more refugees flooding into the European Union, they might be more tempted to vote to leave?   

JOSE MANUEL BARROSO: I am afraid it may have some impact, yes, because wrongly it is associated with the European Union when in fact it was not the European Union that was creating these difficulties and with or without the European Union, with or without Schengen, we will have to face the refugee crisis because they will come to Europe, they will try to come to our countries.  So yes, there is this risk and the fact that we are now approaching summer where more refugees cross the Mediterranean and more illegal migrants try to reach our shores, that may have an impact and that is why I have to tell you very frankly I am concerned about what can be the result of the referendum. At the end I am sometimes considered and accused of being an anglophile, I very much trust the common sense, the wisdom, the pragmatism of the British people and even those that don’t love the European Union, I believe at the end they will be making a rational choice why should we change now, why should we put at risk what we have, why should we make a jumping about.  I am still confident but I have to be honest, I am concerned about the result of the next referendum.  

DM: Jose Manuel Barroso, thank you so much for your time, we very much appreciate it.  The former President of the European Commission there.