ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Later this week the Labour party in Scotland will announce its new leader.  Jim Murphy is the front-runner but whoever gets the job will face a big fight against the Scottish National Party.  The former SNP leader, Alex Salmond, is expected to announce shortly that he’ll stand to become an MP in Westminster at the next election taking the fight right to Labour’s door.  Well Jack McConnell was First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish Labour party from 2001 to 2007 and he joins me now, a very good morning to you Mr McConnell.  Should Scottish Labour be shaking in its boots about Alex Salmond joining the fray, battled hardened by the independence referendum straight into the fight against Labour in a general election?

JACK McCONNELL: Well it seems to be a little bit strange that having wanted more powers in Scotland over the years, as the powers are coming north Alex is moving back south again, it’s a strange choice but he clearly wants to move out of Holyrood, I can understand that, his time has finished there and a new leader has taken over, although I do think a Jim Murphy/Alex Salmond contest might have been quite interesting if indeed Jim does win.

DM: It would be fascinating.  Well if either of them, we’ve still got to await pronouncements on both issues but nevertheless, it’s tactical isn’t it?  If Alex Salmond comes down to Westminster accompanied by potentially a couple of dozen or maybe more SNP MPs, they want to leverage that power don’t they to get what they want in Scotland.

JACK McCONNELL:  Well the general election is six months away and I think it would be wrong now to anticipate exactly what’s going to happen then.  I think in the new year it will be a new year and 2014 was completely dominated by the referendum, obviously feelings are very strong in the aftermath of the referendum but I think the issues in 2015 are going to be less about the independence of Scotland and more about jobs, education, the foreign policy of the country, the key issues that are at stake in May and in that environment it’s a very volatile situation just now and I think all things could change again.

DM: But as things stand your party has got a hill to climb.

JACK McCONNELL: It sure has and I think big lessons to learn in Scotland, big challenges at the UK level as well.  If there are problems, there are certainly challenges at both levels and whoever wins next Saturday will have a key role in all that but also I think the UK leadership of the party its engagement with Scotland is going to be important too.

DM: The leadership is very, very important in terms of what it represents to the Scottish electorate, I take it from what you said earlier that you favour Jim Murphy.

JACK McCONNELL: No, I haven’t made a choice.  I think we’ve got three very strong candidates, one with lots of experience in government in Scotland, one who is a recognised campaigner and a more fresh face and one obviously who has been a substantial figure at Westminster and recently in the referendum campaign all over Scotland.  So three good candidates and I think we’ll be in good shape no matter who is elected next Saturday.

DM: So you’re not going to share with us who you’d like to see?

JACK McCONNELL: No, I’m definitely not but I’m happy to say what I think they should do which is …

DM: Well put it that way and then I can interpret it backwards because there are differences between these candidates and it is all about how you make your offering to those Labour voters that are thinking of voting SNP or did vote SNP in the independence referendum.

JACK McCONNELL: I don't think we should get too tied down to looking backwards to where people have voted recently, I think what’s important is how does Labour in Scotland build a coalition that wins sufficient support again and undoubtedly if Alex Salmond had one success in his time, his seven years as First Minister, it was to build a broad coalition initially in 2007 but more substantially in 2011, which got him the seats that the SNP won.

DM: So steal some of his techniques.

JACK McCONNELL: Well I would go back even further to 1997, Labour’s best election result in Scotland since the 1950s was 1997 and people say that Labour in Scotland needs to move sharply to the left in order to win more support.  No, actually we need to represent people in Scotland, left and moderate voters in Scotland, to make sure that we have the broad support, above 40%, that would give us a real say in the …

DM: This is like twenty questions with me trying to work out which candidate you support, I think I’m getting there, maybe this will unlock it – Trident.  What would you like to see the Labour leader say about removing Trident from Scottish soil?

JACK McCONNELL: I think they should say whatever they feel. Trident is not a Scottish parliament responsibility so the First Minister of Scotland doesn’t have the final say on Trident but the First Minister of Scotland, who this person should want to be, should have a view on Trident.  I had a slightly different view, not massively different but a slightly different view from Tony Blair on Trident when I was First Minister and the new First Minister, who hopefully would be Labour, should be able to express their own point of view but it should be an opinion as part of a UK debate which is where the decision on Trident is taken.

DM: Okay, well let me just say, say it is Jim Murphy – and you mentioned Tony Blair as well there – wouldn’t he be a problem in terms of this attack on the SNP support in Scotland because he’s a Blairite?  Ed Miliband is said to have moved him sideways because of his Blairism so you can imagine what the SNP will do with Jim Murphy in Scotland.

JACK McCONNELL: I don't think people judge politics on the basis of figures from the past and who might have been in whose Cabinet or team at that time.  I think people judge politicians on what they have achieved themselves, what they believe in and what their potential is and I think …

DM: So if it is Jim Murphy, start with a blank sheet, so no one would say what about Tony Blair and ‘illegal wars’ we think and things like that, that would not be some of the baggage he would bring with him?

JACK McCONNELL: If there are people in Scotland who don’t vote Labour now because of the Iraq war then who is leader of the Scottish Labour party is not necessarily going to change that point of view.  What the leader of the Scottish Labour party does, how much inspiration they show that person, how much motivation they appear to have to stand up for Scotland and to do the right thing for Scotland, that is what will change that perception over time.  The Iraq war is now over ten years ago and I think if that was to be the dominating feature of a Scottish parliamentary election in 2016 I think it would be very unfortunate.  I think we’re in a situation now in Scotland where we have huge economic challenges, huge social challenges still in our country and we’re going to need to use these new powers that are on the way as effectively as possible and we need a leader who can do that.

DM: It’s interesting what you are saying, Mr McConnell, about independence as an issue, you kind of think it will recede whereas others are saying well it is just the neverendum as was predicted before the independence referendum in that we’ve got the general election, it will be a big feature in there and then potentially in 2017, a UK wide referendum on membership of the European Union, in Scotland independence will naturally be a big factor there, that it is going to happen, that it is now almost inevitable.

JACK McCONNELL: Well I think one of the unfortunate things of the aftermath of the referendum was despite the fact that Alex Salmond said before the referendum he would accept the result, he and the Scottish National Party have not accepted the result so I think that is a real tragedy for Scotland because if we do end up in this never-ending debate about independence then we don’t move on to the critical day to day issues of the economy and education and so on.  I think, I do think there is going to be at some point a desire among the people of Scotland to have politicians who are talking about those issues and not talking about independence so there may be some who want to keep this debate going but I suspect that we might find in 2015 that they are in a minority and not a majority and that whoever the new leader is, and obviously with a new leader in Holyrood for the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon, whoever the new leader of Scottish Labour is, I think we might find that actually at long last, almost a decade on from the SNP getting power in Holyrood, we do start to have a debate about the day to day issues that affect people rather than the technicalities of constitutions that affect politicians.

DM: And a quick last question about Westminster, so however many SMPs there are, even if it is the same amount as now, if they hold the balance of power with Labour as the largest party that’s a conundrum is it not for your party?  What would your advice be to Mr Miliband about doing a deal with them because ultimately the SNP want to get a step closer to independence, if independence actually happens that deprives Labour, as we know in Westminster, of many of its MPs.

JACK McCONNELL: Well the one thing I would say to all the Westminster leaders is they need to stop viewing Scotland and the other parts of the United Kingdom as places to which they occasionally make concessions.  They need to govern for the whole country, they need to say that the government at Westminster has a responsibility to be in touch with every part of the country, to be relevant in every part of the country, to devolve what is right but to govern where it’s important as well and I think one of the biggest problems in the last decade has been that the government at Westminster has detached itself from those devolved nations elsewhere in the kingdom and it is time for them to re-engage, not just in a year when there is a referendum but in 2015 and beyond as well and if they do that, then their choices will be easier after the general election and not more difficult.

DM: Okay, Jack McConnell, great to see you, thank you very much indeed.