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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon is set to meet Theresa May tomorrow in Downing Street and she’s been asked by the leader of the Labour party in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale, to negotiate on behalf of all Scots and not just those wishing for a second independence referendum and Kezia Dugdale joins me now from Edinburgh, a very good morning to you Ms Dugdale.  Do you fear then that Nicola Sturgeon might sell out pro-Union Scots?

KEZIA DUGDALE: No, I support Nicola Sturgeon’s efforts to get the best possible deal for Scotland out of what’s happened with regards to the EU referendum but as I say in my letter to the First Minister she needs to represent all Scots and that includes those Scots who voted no just two years’ ago because what most Scots want is to be part of both unions, to have a close relationship with Europe and to be part of the United Kingdom, she’s got to remember that when she goes into these conversations where she is threatening a second independence referendum. Scotland is already divided enough, we don’t want to be divided again and the idea that independence is going to bring any security to Scotland is just farcical in the current economic circumstances, in fact it would be an act of economic vandalism in my view to pursue a second independence referendum at this stage.

DM: She needs some kind of stick, some kind of leverage, just as the UK does in its coming negotiations with the EU, she needs some kind of threat doesn’t she to force perhaps Theresa May’s hand?

KEZIA DUGDALE: I don't think we should be talking about an independence referendum as a threat, you know Nicola Sturgeon believes that independence is the best possible future for Scotland and I take a very, very different view.  The sad reality is that the difference between what Scotland raises in taxes and what it spends is £15 billion, not once have I heard the First Minister offer an argument as to how she would turn that around.  Two years on from the last independence referendum she still hasn’t answered key questions on the issue of currency and our country is divided so what we need to do just now is to focus on building a strong economy, creating opportunities for young people and there are no answers from independence on those priorities which is why we’ve got to make the best of the situation we’re faced with when it comes to Europe but we also have to speak up for those two million Scots who just two years ago voted to remain part of the United Kingdom.  That’s got to be the focus, that’s the best thing for Scotland it is what I’ll be arguing for which is why myself and my party colleagues in the Scottish parliament will vote against any attempt to have a second independence referendum.

DM: But I’ve read your letter to Ms Sturgeon and you agree when it comes to the EU and withdrawing from the EU, you agree with an awful lot of what Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are saying about access to the single market and the status of EU nationals who live in Scotland and things like that.  

KEZIA DUGDALE: Very much so and I support the efforts to have free access to the single market, to have free movement of workers across Europe but equally I recognise that there is another very important single market and that is the one which is the United Kingdom and independence threatens that union and I want to protect it so I will offer Nicola Sturgeon support where I agree with what she is doing, where I think she is taking decisions in the best interests of Scotland but on the issue of independence we are going to part ways. I think it would be irresponsible and indeed economic vandalism to purse another independence referendum at this stage.  Our country’s divided, I don’t want it to be that way, I want all our parties and all our politicians in Scotland to be focused on making the best possible deal for Scotland out of these circumstances.  I would also like Nicola Sturgeon to get on with her day job, the things she also promised to do in her manifesto, to close that gap between the richest and the poorest children in our schools, to tackle a growing crisis in our NHS, on our railways.  There is a lot of work for Nicola Sturgeon to do there and as I say, I’ll support her where I think she is getting it right for Scotland but on the issue of independence, I simply cannot agree that that is a priority for just now.

DM: But I mean you then face an even more difficult question than the First Minister when it’s put to her, how could these things happen in Scotland – access to the single market, free movement of people – if they don’t happen in the rest of the United Kingdom if Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom?  At least Nicola Sturgeon can say if the Scottish people want it, we can become an independent country, then those things could easily happen if Scotland is allowed back into the EU, but if it’s one size fits all for the UK then you’ve no answer to that.

KEZIA DUGDALE: I don't think you’ll find any experts across Europe who think Scotland would have an easy relationship as an independent country in Europe.  Nicola Sturgeon likes to gloss over the fact and reality of that but the reality is in the UK just now there are a number of different voices, from Nicola Sturgeon, from Carwyn Jones in Wales, Eileen Foster in Northern Ireland, Sadiq Khan in London who all should have a voice in what happens next around the Brexit negotiations and that’s why tomorrow’s meeting with the Prime Minister is so important.  As I say, when it comes to protecting Scottish jobs, creating opportunities for our businesses and employers to trade across Europe, I am fully supportive of Nicola Sturgeon’s efforts to do that, I’ve said that since the start of the summer.  However the idea that independence is going to address any of these issues around economic insecurity, it’s just farcical and it has to stop, it is economic vandalism and I hear it all the time from business leaders in Scotland that the last thing Scotland needs is the threat of a second independence referendum.  What we need to do just now is to focus on making the best of the opportunities that we have in Scotland and getting on with the day job.

DM: But there are voices within you own party aren’t there, you are more aware of them that I am, who say perhaps Scottish Labour should consider a second independence referendum?  Your own deputy and advisor to Mr Corbyn, Paul Mason, amongst others.  

KEZIA DUGDALE: Paul Mason has nothing to do with the Scottish Labour party, I can tell you that much.  Every single Labour MSP in the Scottish Parliament is united behind our manifesto commitment which is to oppose a second independence referendum over the lifetime of the next parliament.  Why?  Because we believed Nicola Sturgeon when she said it was a once in a lifetime, once in a generation opportunity and you have to recognise Dermot that there are two mandates in Scotland, yes one from the voters just a few months ago to have a strong relationship between Scotland and Europe but also just two years ago two million Scots voted no and what we were told was a decisive referendum and the result of that referendum should be respected.  So the Scottish Labour party actually reflects what the vast majority of Scots want which is a close relationship with Europe and to be part of the United Kingdom and that’s what we are going to continue to fight for.

DM: I asked you if it was being discussed within your party.

KEZIA DUGDALE: There is no appetite for independence within the Scottish Labour party, we’ve been very clear that we are opposed to a second independence referendum, we are looking closely now at what happens after we leave the European Union in terms of the repatriation of powers, there is a big debate to be had about those powers coming back to either Westminster or Scotland.  I think there is a very strong case for many of those powers coming to Scotland and we’re doing a lot of work around that and I am excited to be a part of that conversation and that debate but the Scottish Labour party is wholly united in its opposition to a second independence referendum because our country is divided enough, that’s the first and foremost reason.  Secondly though, everybody in the Scottish Labour party is committed to tackling poverty and inequality and you cannot do that if you are faced with a £15 billion deficit and not once have I heard an argument from Nicola Sturgeon about how she would address that deficit, how she would resolve the currency questions, all the arguments as to why she lost the last referendum are even stronger now so the idea that independence is some sort of answer to the challenges that Scotland face I’m afraid just falls apart at the slightest degree of scrutiny which we means we have to rule out a second independence referendum and all the parties in Scotland can unite around making the very best of the situation we’re faced with now that we’re set to leave the European Union.

DM: Lastly, talking about losers, do you still think that Jeremy Corbyn can’t win a general election?

KEZIA DUGDALE: Look, I’ve made it very clear, Jeremy Corbyn got a substantial mandate at the party conference just a few weeks ago and the focus for everyone in the Labour party just now is to unite behind Jeremy and his vision for the future of our country and I intend to do that.  I however lead an autonomous Scottish Labour party and it’s my job here in Scotland to improve our fortunes here and we are working hard on that every day.  We have got a very clear anti-austerity platform and we are the only major party in Scotland that has a clear plan to stop any further cuts to public services.  We are about to see the SNPs budget where once again they are going to rip the heart out of our local communities with further cuts to education and indeed other vital public services and we stand steadfast against that.  

DM: We believed you when you backed Owen Smith in the leadership campaign, you said then that Jeremy Corbyn can’t win a general election, have you changed your mind?

KEZIA DUGDALE: Divided parties can’t win elections, that’s why unity is so important and you’ll find that everybody in the Labour party now is committed to making the very best of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership and I am going to play my part in doing that but I am also responsible for what happens here in Scotland and it is my job to focus on that.  

DM: So he can win a general election?

KEZIA DUGDALE: I want a Labour government and I get up every single day to see the Tories out of office.  If you want to fully understand the appetite for a second independence referendum if there is one, it is the xenophobic right wing views of Theresa May’s government.  The only way that we can get rid of that government is to replace it with a Labour government and that’s what I will fight for every single day in everything I’ve always done.

DM: We’ll take that as a maybe.  Kezia Dugdale, thank you very much indeed.