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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now Downing Street has been accused of censoring eurosceptic Cabinet Ministers, according to a report in the Telegraph today.  It is after the Prime Minister conceded last week that Ministers would be able to campaign on both sides of the referendum debate and speaking this morning the Prime Minister has insisted the leaving the EU is not, quote/unquote, ‘the right answer’.  Well I am joined now by the eurosceptic former Defence Secretary Liam Fox, a very good morning to you Dr Fox and I know you disagree with that from the Prime Minister but what about this first issue about ministers and cabinet ministers, as I understand it after the negotiations are completed they will be free to speak their minds and follow their conscience but up to that point it seems that if you are in favour of Europe you are allowed to speak out, if you’re not you’re still muzzled.

LIAM FOX: Well one of the most important elements about the referendum is will it be fair and will it be seen to be fair afterwards because if it’s not then I think there will be questions over the legitimacy of the result and it’s in everyone’s interests that everyone believes the answer is a legitimate one.  The Prime Minister I think was completely correct to allow Ministers to speak their minds because the Tory party is in a different position from the Labour party.  After the referendum we will still have to govern for the next three and a half, four years, as the majority party in the House of Commons …

DM: Sorry to interject but the suggestion at the moment they are not free, we know that, they are not free to speak to speak their minds, if you are a eurosceptic at ministerial or cabinet level you are not allowed to speak your mind but of course if you are in favour, you are.  

LIAM FOX: Well I think it needs to apply equally to both sides.  

DM: Now?  

LIAM FOX: Now because if it’s wrong to make assumptions on the eurosceptic side of the debate about what the outcome of the renegotiations will be, it must equally be wrong to make assumptions on the other side so we need to keep a lid on that.  I don't think it’s the most important point in the whole debate and I think we do need to get onto issues of substance in the referendum now, not constantly go on about process and about what politicians are doing because ultimately voters will have the same say in that referendum as any politician.  

DM: You are more or less saying, you said it before, that the Prime Minister is barking up the wrong tree.  Even if he gets everything he asks for, it’s not enough.  

LIAM FOX: Well for me it is a point of principle.  I think that we have to make our own laws in this country and not have our laws made by the European court and by judges overseas, I think we should control our own borders and not have our borders decided by European law and I think if you don’t make your own laws and you don’t control your own borders you are not a sovereign nation, which is why I want to leave the European Union, I don’t make any bones about that.  

DM: Technically, to interject on that, won’t that new European Border Force be able to operate in the UK without being called for by the UK government?

LIAM FOX: We’re not part of Schengen so it doesn’t apply directly to us but what is very clear is that this is a force, a border force that is under the control of the Commission, the unelected Commission, and they will be able to deploy that in any part of the European Union’s external borders that’s part of Schengen, against the will of the sovereign governments.  Now we are being told that Europe is coming in our way and is not as committed to ever closer union as before – I couldn’t give you a better example than the one you have just given me about the intent of the European Union itself.

DM: What do you think about the Prime Minister’s position if after the negotiations and whichever way he campaigns he says that the options are still open, if he loses what do you think he should do?

LIAM FOX: I don't think we should entertain the question because I think the Prime Minister is completely correct, I saw him this morning saying that of course he would continue as Prime Minister irrespective of the result and of course any Prime Minister has to say that because no one goes into a campaign making any assumptions that they might not win it and I wouldn’t entertain the opposite argument either, but what I think is very important in all this debate is, as I say, that we get back into the substance of it.  We seem to be obsessed with what will happen to the politicians when we should be talking about what will happen to the country.  

DM: But you are nicely positioned, if the Prime Minister’s ambitions should end up in smoking ruins, looking at this Conservative website that has done the polling for the next leader, you are nestling just behind Theresa May on 19%, she’s on 20, is this a deliberate attempt to get yourself at least back in the Cabinet?  

LIAM FOX: Flattery is usually a good way to get politicians to answer question they wouldn’t otherwise do but on this occasion it hasn’t really worked and again I think we should be looking at the issues of substance.  It does worry me a little that we have got this far into this process without having big debates about ever closer union, about border control, about the economy and I think the longer that we focus on – with all due respect – the trivia of the politicians themselves, the less we spend talking about the country.  

DM: Okay, well I want to talk about this specific issue.  The Prime Minister, what sticks in most people’s minds is this issue, migration is obviously a massive issue within the prospective referendum, is the limiting of benefits to four years for migrants from within the European Union, if he gets that we know that’s going to be hailed, or something close to it, a major triumph.  What’s your view on that?

LIAM FOX: Well I think some of these changes are important in themselves if we stay in but they are not a reason to stay in.  The reason to stay in would be that you believed in the concept of ever closer union, that you believed in supra-nationalism, i.e. a big umbrella over the individual nation states.  I don’t believe in that which is why I can’t be convinced to stay.  I think the logical end point of ever closer union is union and I don’t want that for the United Kingdom, I want to be an independent country that co-operates with our European partners where it’s in our mutual interest to do so but be able to act separately when Britain’s national interest requires it and …

DM: But in the negotiations he is addressing that, ever closer union aspiration.

LIAM FOX: Well we can’t actually because as long as we are under the jurisdiction of the European Court they will ultimately be able to change British law and even if you take the words ‘ever closer union’ out, you are still left with what they call the spirit of the treaties and the European Court will then say well it may not be actually in the treaties but it’s the spirit of the treaties and the way in which they were negotiated and they interpret law on that basis. That’s not how we make law in the United Kingdom, nor should it be.

DM: Just a quick thought while you are with us Dr Fox, with your medical background, this Junior Doctor strike coming up on Tuesday.  Do you agree with Jeremy Hunt that it can’t but do damage to patients?

LIAM FOX: Well it can’t but do damage to patients but I think we need to have a look at how we run our health service and I do agree with Jeremy Hunt that we need to look at a much more seven day a week service.  Patients don’t only get ill five days a week, we spend a huge amount of investment for example on equipment that doesn’t work all the time and we still have patients waiting for investigations but, and there is a but, if we are going to do that then it is not just the doctors we require on a seven day contract because there’s no point having doctors on duty if you don’t have the people to do the MRI scans and you don’t have those able to interpret X rays, you don’t have bacteriologists, haematologists, we do need to have a proper debate about how we move forward.  The health secretary in my view is exactly correct that this is the direction that we should be going and I think we have to have a debate …

DM: But what about whether they should be allowed to strike?  

LIAM FOX: Well other than those that maintain our national security, the armed forces and the police, I’ve never been very much in favour of denying people the right to strike because I think in a free society that is going too far in terms of state intervention but even now I would say to them, think carefully about where this will take patient care and also where it will take respect for doctors in the longer term.  

DM: Liam Fox, thank you very much indeed.