ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:  Well it was of course the topic David Cameron warned his party years ago to stop banging on about but Europe it seems could be the issue that defines his premiership and now a deal has been struck and a date has been set for a referendum, divisions in his party could take centre stage. Well Liam Fox, the eurosceptic former Defence Secretary, joins me now and a couple of weeks ago a poll put him in the lead as perhaps the next Conservative leader, and a very good morning to you.   Also a few weeks back you were on this programme telling me you thought round about five Cabinet Ministers would go for the leave side, well mystic clocks!  

LIAM FOX:     If you are very good I might give you some of the lottery numbers for next week!  Yes, I think it was always very clear that some Ministers simply would not be able to tolerate whatever deal was reached because they regarded it as such an important issue of tremendous substance that they were long committed, Michael Gove being one of them, Chris Grayling being another, of those who just fundamentally believed that Britain would be better off outside the EU whatever the terms of the renegotiation.  

DM: You must be disappointed about the likes of Sajid Javid not coming across, your antennae must have told you that at the very least he was sitting on the fence.    

LIAM FOX:     Yes,  he wasn’t one of my five so I wasn’t that surprised in the end but of course we are all still friends and we’ll work together after the referendum for what’s best for the country but this is a judgement that we have to take, a very profound judgement about our constitutional future as a country and I think that one of the reasons that I think – and I know you have been having a lot on this debate and I’m not privy incidentally to this but one of the reasons I think that Boris Johnson will choose to campaign for the out side, the leave side in the referendum, is this issue of sovereignty because I think for a lot of people they were looking to see where does the power ultimately lie to make our laws and sovereignty is about who has precedence in terms of the law.  The agreement that was reached, and I hate to sound technical about this, but the agreement that was reached on so-called ever closer union was an agreement between the heads of government.  That does not outweigh treaty, the European Court of Justice will ultimately look at treaty and say that is what actually will make it happen.  

DM: Okay, so we know about the Mayor of London’s concerns about that, he has voiced them in the House of Commons, but what are your contacts with him?  

LIAM FOX:     Well just like many of my other colleagues, I am very friendly with him, I’m having dinner with him later this week so there is nothing remarkable about all of this but I think it is …

DM: But just on his decision, would it be a big surprise to you if he does not support the leave campaign?  

LIAM FOX:     Yes, I’d be surprised because I think it is all about this point of sovereignty and the Prime Minister says Britain is now free from ever closer union – I don't think that stands up to legal scrutiny because I think that the European Court will still say that the agreement you reached this week says it is in accordance with EU Treaties, we are not getting any Treaty change, the only way you can actually change the Treaty is through the EU Treaty Amendment Procedure.  That didn’t happen and that means the European Court will look at what the Ministers said this week, the Heads of Government, but they do not have to take it into account and for many Conservatives that will be the crucial point because it means that we ultimately do not make our laws, they are determined overseas.  

DM: But this question has got to be asked about the Conservative party – if you do get Boris Johnson taking on the sitting Prime Minister, Conservative prime minister of the day, this is going to be like the political version of one of those superhero movies or Godzilla versus King Kong, where they fight themselves across the major cities of the world and leave them all destroyed and you end up with your party in tatters, a decision has been made about the European Union but one of them presumably must fall.

LIAM FOX:     Well I don’t go back to this personality argument.  I completely…

DM: But they are such big beasts.  

LIAM FOX:  Well I completely respect what the Prime Minister was trying to do, he was trying to get a better deal that would enable us to stay within the European Union. That’s not what I wanted in the first place, I wanted to leave the European Union but for me what was interesting about that was that the process actually became the story, that we had a British Prime Minister going round with what I described as the political begging bowl asking lots of small countries that we actually subsidise through our contributions to the EU, if it was okay for Britain to change some of our welfare laws.  I don't think we should have to do that and that is my fundamental principle and I think that the arguments need to stay on the substance.  We must get away from, if you don’t mind me saying, the Westminster bubble portraying politics as entertainment, we need to get away from….

DM: It’s certainly not entertainment because it is such an important issue and it affects the people who articulate the arguments.  The Prime Minister is the best one to articulate the argument in terms of the renegotiation that he’s been privy to and people like yourself and Boris Johnson are very, very qualified to talk to us about issues such sovereignty and employment.

LIAM FOX:     Look, there are many other people outside politics who will take a view on these and who need to be listened to, people who are involved in our security arrangements, in defence, in foreign policy, they all need to be heard and what I am really saying is that I don't think it should be turned into a personality contest one against another.  

DM: It is indeed about the issues but it is also about that leadership side of things and if you get the result you want would you really have confidence in the Prime Minister, the man who wanted to see the opposite result, then leading all that technical process of taking the UK out of the EU, do you not think that his heart wouldn’t really be in it?

LIAM FOX:     Well the question here is: are we democrats or are we not democrats?  The public will give their view and everybody watching this programme will have the same ability to change that result as we will have because they will have the same vote as we do.  When the public have made the decision it is up to the politicians to accept the will of the people.  If they feel we cannot accept the will of the people and implement what the British public want, then clearly they can’t serve in the government.  That will be a decision for them to take after we have been through this process and the referendum and it will be very passionate and a lot of friendships will be tested in this but in the end we will have to come back together to govern the country, we will still be the majority party in the House of Commons.  

DM: Just on friendships being tested, what do you make of the likes of George Galloway supporting the result you want to see?  

LIAM FOX:     I’m sure there will be all sorts of people that wouldn’t normally be my political friends or allies in that and they will have their own reasons for doing that.  Actually his reasons are diametrically opposed to mine.  

DM: You can’t both be right, he thinks leaving the EU would turn Britain into a socialist paradise.  

LIAM FOX:     And I of course think that is completely wrong because I think there is no chance of us electing Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister but let’s park that for a moment.  On both sides, I mean people say how could you be in the same campaign as George Galloway and others but the Prime Minister is going to have to link arms with Nicola Sturgeon and Jeremy Corbyn on that side of the argument, not a pretty picture I have to say!  

DM: Okay, Liam Fox, very good to see you, very good to see you as ever.