ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, with this week’s Super Thursday of elections, the EU referendum seems, at least temporarily, to be taking a bit of a back seat this weekend but rest assured, it won’t be for long.  One of the enduring figureheads of pro-Europe Conservatism has been Lord Heseltine, the former Deputy Prime Minister, so what does he make of the campaign so far?  Well he joins me now from Banbury in Oxfordshire to tell us, a very good morning to you Lord Heseltine.  I want to start first of all by asking if you have any concerns about the Remain campaign and in particular it has been said that it doesn’t seem at this point that young people are being energised enough to get out to vote.  We know that the polls are telling us they are the most  pro-Europe section of the population.  

LORD HESELTINE: Well I know, I’ve read that in the polls but we’ve got a long way to go and my guess is that the interest will rise.  It has already had very considerable coverage in the media but my guess is it will intensify and I think that the young generation as I know them are extremely interested in the broad political issues, they may not be interested in party politics particularly but they are certainly very interested in the issues and I think they are very aware that the decision about Britain’s role in Europe, which of course reflects its role in the world, is of critical importance to them. So I think you will see much more participation than perhaps the polls at the moment indicate but I think to me the depressing thing about the campaign is the sort of language people are being urged to leave Europe.  I saw something the other day about £7 billion being saved which could go into the health service – there’s no way they are going to be savings of this sort if we leave Europe.  People just haven’t worked out the cost that Europe will insist, the way that it does with Norway and Switzerland, for us to trade within the European market which is fundamental to us.  I think the other thing that people are just not taking on board is that if we were to say there is a saving of £7 billion to the UK, well who’s going to suffer?  Well I’ll tell you who’s going to suffer, which is about two-thirds of members of the European Union who are going to see the money they get to try and bring their standards of living up to the more prosperous northern areas, they’re going to suffer and each of those countries have got a sovereign role to vote on Britain’s new deal.  Why should they help us?  Well the argument is because there’s a much bigger trade balance going towards Europe than with us but the more you look into it, that applies only to a handful of the bigger countries.  For the smaller ones it is a very different story indeed.  Indeed there are countries where we have a favourable balance and they are going to lose some of our money, so the idea that these countries are all going to be saying ‘Good old Brits, we’ll do what we can’ is just fanciful.  

DM: But on the issue of figures and so many figures being bandied around on both sides, do you have any concerns about the Remain campaign leaving itself open to accusations of Project Fear when it comes up with numbers such of the thousands of pounds that it will cost each and every family in the UK if we leave the EU?  Are you certain about the robustness of your side’s figures?

LORD HESELTINE: Well everybody knows that they are projections but why doesn’t the Leave campaign produce projections?  Why don’t they say what they think will happen?  The answer is very simple – they can’t, because the damage that will flow as every serious international commentator and very large numbers of leading companies have made clear, the damage is quite unacceptable to the Leave campaign so much better to do what?  Accuse the Remain campaign of fear.  Now let’s address that issue.  If you were to say to me, look I’m thinking of doing something or other and as a friend I want your advice.  If I gave you the advice that said look, I think there’s a big risk in that, would you turn round and say ‘Well I didn’t ask you to frighten me?’  You wouldn’t, you’d say to me I asked for your advice, you’ve given it to me and I’ll consider it and that’s what is happening.  It’s not a question of Project Fear, it is a rational analysis of the downsides of leaving given to this country by many leading Brits but our own international friends.  We had President Obama here the other day and setting aside some of the very appalling things that were said by the people who want to leave Europe about his motives, this guy has a binding commitment to come to our defence. I was there in 1940 when the Americans didn’t come, it took Churchill 18 months when we stood alone and saw our shipping being decimated in the Atlantic, our economic wealth dissipating in order to find the resources to try and buy kit.  In those 18 months we really saw what sovereignty can be all about, it can be a very lonely place and so the Americans, who are now committed to our defence, well aren’t they entitled to say we need you, we rely on you, we’re part of a partnership?  I think they are more than entitled to do that.  

DM: Okay but what are your concerns, do you have any about the damage it might be causing to your own party?  Of course in the 90s you were caught up in all those rows which were so debilitating for John Major’s government, do you see that happening again?  We are seeing ministers, cabinet ministers on different sides of the argument criticising each other and criticising aspects of government policy.

LORD HESELTINE: I do see that and yes, well, what am I to say?  I say this, I believe that Conservative governments are a very proved way of improving living standards and managing the UK economy, I believe in Conservative governments.  I know that this government is in power because David Cameron is more popular than the Conservative party.  I don’t like saying that particularly because I don’t want to have a personality cult but I know the facts are that the won this election for the Conservatives and now to see people who frankly, many of them would not have their seats and many of them wouldn’t be in government if David Cameron hadn’t won that election for the Conservatives and to see them now turning on the policies which some of them have been sitting in the government implementing, I just find mind blowing but on the more optimistic scenario, the Conservative party is the most successful political force in human history, it will come back together, that’s what it does because unlike the Labour party who are the party essentially of protest, the Conservatives are a party of government, they want to do things and to do things you have to get elected, you have to enjoy power.  

DM: But if this is lost, Mr Cameron can’t survive, can he, as Prime Minister?

LORD HESELTINE: Well I’m not getting into the speculation of what happens, it is too horrific to me to try and contemplate.  Who would actually go to Europe in order to negotiate the new contract?  Whoever went would be going from a House of Commons five-sixth of which don’t want to leave Europe at all so what sort of negotiations do they do?  Suppose they come back with a rotten deal, do you think parliament should be expected to accept anything as opposed to something that might be a great deal better that we have today?  Let’s not get into the question of what David Cameron does or doesn’t do, that’s a matter much for him than for me but the fact that his premiership is at risk as you put it to me, that indicates to me another powerful argument for remaining in Europe.

DM: Lord Heseltine, very good to talk to you, thank you very much indeed for your time.